Hey gals and guys,

I found this article whilst researching some Global Warming articles (of all things!) and couldn't help but be reminded of this forum.

The article concludes thusly .....

It takes religion to make good people do evil? Since when?

I'm not claiming that religious people don't do evil by all means. But since when have 'religious' people been good - ever!?

For one thing... 'noone is good but God'.

For another, I refer you to Jesus words to the Pharisees as far his response to 'religious' types go...


Mat 23:23 You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you're in for trouble! You give God a tenth of the spices from your garden, such as mint, dill, and cumin. Yet you neglect the more important matters of the Law, such as justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the important things you should have done, though you should not have left the others undone either.
Mat 23:24 You blind leaders! You strain out a small fly but swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you're in for trouble! You wash the outside of your cups and dishes, while inside there is nothing but greed and selfishness.
Mat 23:26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of a cup, and then the outside will also be clean.

Jesus Christ didn't seem to like 'religion' either.

-Egg

Hi, Seafsee.

The man's statement is illogical.

Continuing with Egg's thought:
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
-- Matthew 7:15-20

What a person is, good or evil, is manifest by their words and deeds. If at any time a person's deeds are evil, then at no time were they ever "good". They were simply evil people waiting for the time and opportunity to perpetrate their evil deeds.

Cheers and God bless,
enegue

Yet you say that being Christian is not about being good. So the only logical conclusion is that, according to your various statements, at least some Christians are evil people just waiting for the time and opportunity to perpetrate their evil deeds.

The idea of "good and evil" as presented in SFS's post is an arbitrary "definition". The comment about religion being needed to make good people do evil is simply an atheist point of view. It could just as easily be said that it requires unbelief to be evil and it could be proved just as easily.

Of course all our thinkers have already recognized that there are any number of vocations that have not crashed a plane into the side of a building and that not having done something doesn't mean it is not possible.

The comments appear to be "sour grapes" over admitting that there is no way to disprove the existence of God. They were needless and petty and would certainly cause me to lean toward discounting anything else the writer had to say in the article simply because of it pettiness.

ZZ

Hi, Wog.

Good to see you back.

What you say is a valid conclusion.

What is a Christian? Well, a Christian is a follower of Christ, right?. Judas was a follower of Christ, but history records that he was an evil person just waiting for the time and opportunity to perpetrate his evil deed.

Just as there are two fundamental aspects to our nature, the flesh (mind and body) and the spirit, there are also two aspects to being Christian, the fleshly and the spiritual. This notion is not confined to Christianity BTW, it applies to any movement that unites a group of people. There will always be those who are drawn to the movement in order to get something (fleshly), and others who are drawn in order to give something (spiritual). Time and opportunity are the things necessary to differentiate one from another.

Cheers and God bless,
enegue

Hi Wog,

Nice to see ya again

I think everyone does evil and, as I posted above, 'noone is good but God'. Therefore, everyone is 'evil'. I think what the writer is referring to as 'evil' are those who allow their 'evil' desires manifest themselves in a big way. Those are people who have gotten themselves in positions of power and haven't been able to handle it. I believe that a lot of those people may have actually started off with good intentions. Most of the time, in my experience, people start off with good intentions and then when something goes wrong and threatens their plans they can sometimes turn toward dishonest means to continue in their way rather than just let it go. I believe that this applies in small ways too, not just the big ways we see with those who call themselves Christian and then 'do evil'.

I believe that pride is such a downfall for human beings. I have discussed my own struggles in this area in other threads, but I will emphasise this again here for it's relevance to my current point. Sometimes when we make plans and strive to meet our goals and things don't work out, we decide that we will keep going and do anything to make sure it happens. I use 'we' because, in my opinion, this is natural human behaviour. Sometimes it's only a slight deviation from the right path. For example, someone might tell a 'small' lie to their boss about being sick when they're not. They could think, 'what they don't know won't hurt them and I rarely take a sick day anyway. I deserve this day off and it would hurt my chances of gaining partner if I said I just want a day off for no real reason'. This is only a small scale thing obviously. Blow it up though to someone who is in a high power position and who's goal is not just obtaining partner in a firm, but to bring democracy to a nation. If this person does something proportionally dishonest to the 'sick day' incident in this situation, you might see that it seems a lot more 'evil'. I believe that this is only because it is on a much larger scale. It's all relative. If you're playing in the big leagues then you're going to be affecting people in a much larger way than if you're only a pleb. Yes, it might appear more 'evil' to play with people's lives, but as the saying goes 'with power comes responsibility'. Those people, to me, are only being as 'evil' as their position allows. I think people in ordinary positions are just as evil, it's just not as well known.

In my view, everyone has equal capacity to do evil. I also think it is easy to let ourselves get swept away into doing evil when we actually intend to do good in the beginning. I believe that there is a time to fight and a time to let go of things and quite often it is hard to tell what time is what. Sometimes, I believe, these 'Christians' that are constantly under scrutiny and who 'do evil' (who I don't believe are real Christians anyway), let their desire for power or glory (e.g. for the praise and recognition for 'bringing peace to a nation' or 'bring down the seeming bad guys') take precedence over their real responsibility for doing good. They get their wires crossed somewhere along the line and lose sight of their original purpose or principles. It appears that the goal itself becomes more important than the reason it was wanted in the first place. It all comes down to a matter of pride to me. Kind of like, 'I'm doing this because I started doing it and you bet I'm going to finish it no matter what'. Not always the wisest decision. As I said, I think there is a time to fight for something and then there's a time to step aside. I think the time to step aside and let go comes when one has to turn to dishonest means to continue striving. That's not Godly or good. Goodness never involves doing evil to obtain goals - no matter how noble those goals might be. If it's not done right then it's not right.

I have lived this in my own life every day on a small scale. I only imagine what it could be like for those in very powerful positions. Imagine what they would be thinking. "How can I back out now? I've promised these people that there will be peace and there will be justice and that we will win (this merger/war etc...). How could I possibly just back out and say that we lost?". The person having to do this would feel so ashamed and like a true failure. I actually think that, fundamentally, they would have saved a whole lot of trouble by backing out before they did anything dishonest.

-Egg

Nice to see you too, egg. As usual, I agree with a lot that you say. You have a decent understanding of human psychology, I think. This last post, though, has the No True Scotsman fallacy threaded all through it.

Lately I've been running into Christians who insist that God isn't, and never has been portrayed as, loving, benevolent, or (even, in one case) good and that Christians needn't be those things either, that Christianity is all about serving God and that it doesn't matter whether that service results in good or evil. I am simply flabbergasted when I hear these claims. I'd love to hear your comments.

Hi Wog,

It's very nice to hear from you again. I've missed you.

Wog, lately I have also been running into Christians who insist that God is not & never has been portrayed as a loving, bénévolent God and that Christians need not be these things either!

Funny how we were thinking about the same issues & I was actually speaking with Christians who do believe what you've posted above

Strange? Coincidence? I have no idea. I don't call myself a "Christian" as most "Christians" do. I am just a good hearted, bénévolent man & get "taken" a lot because of my good nature. Even by "Christians" Not long ago a "Christian" friend wanted to stay with me for a couple of days until he got into Housing. I let him & he ended up ripping me off for money. Never purchased his own food or cigs. He smoked all my cigs and I found he was rather stuck up and that he really did not care at all!

BTW...I have quit cigs for near 2 weeks now I'm a tad crabby at times, but I get over it.

Now I'm so careful. But IMHO, being TOO careful can lead to loneliness, depression, ect. It's hard to know what to do sometimes?

Take Good Care my Friend & Peace

_________________
Warm Regards,
David (esacnitsuj)
EULAGree With Security

Quote:

"A Weak Mind Can Be Easily Controlled!" "Ni Bastori Carborundum" ©1963 SQIV

Hi, David. I was scarce for a while because I was on deadline with one editing project and one write-for-hire project, and then I went to a seminar out of my state, took a little vacation, and then suffered for a week with a bout of crud from airplane cooties. Being away from the computer and off the Internet for a while was pleasant, productive, and healthy. I've made a resolution to spend less time at the computer and, when I am at the computer, to spend more of my time writing and editing and less of it playing on the Internet.

I've always thought most Christians were good people who believed that Christianity was synonymous with goodness. (We all know about the kind who use Christianity to glorify themselves or to trick people into going along with their agenda, but I've always thought those were in the minority and the majority were trying to do what they'd been taught was the only good thing, as deluded as I might think that is and as self-righteous as some of them become.) I don't understand what would motivate someone to devote his life to a god he doesn't believe is good.

It took me sixteen minutes to realize I'd forgotten to congratulate you, David, on quitting the nicotine habit. Good move! I quit about fourteen years ago. I honestly think I might be dead by now if I hadn't.

Hi Wog,
I think it's a tight rope. Christians are "supposed" to be good. It's what most of our society expects. I think that the problem with this expectation is that many people, including Christians, don't understand why Christians should be "good". I certainly do not agree with the idea that the end justifies the means or that Christianity gives us license to do whatever we think is needed. I can, however see where a non-believer's point of view might lead them to think that Christians are doing "bad" things. I doubt that these are the "Christians" you are talking about because I doubt they would characterize their beliefs as you have stated.

It's a lot like many of the earlier conversations we've had. There are many things recorded in the Bible that you and I perceive very differently. I suppose that, in an attempt to relate to you, I could characterize them from your position in my conversation and refer to God as not being "good" or "benevolent" or "loving". I don't know if this is the manner in which they think but I can see how this might be possible.

As I have said before, there are two sides to the coin in a lot of these cases. What would be perceived as aggressive and unloving to one group is loving and supportive to another.

In many ways I think this dichotomy is true when comparing the beliefs of atheist and Christians. Many of the atheist I have met don't really understand why the Christian community pushes for changes in the science programs in our schools. From their point of view, it is simply teaching what we can prove using the tools provided. They do not understand that these teachings are aggressive and subversive to Christianity and that THIS is the reason that the issue of Evolution vs Creation doesn't go away. The Atheist think that they are doing a "good" thing and the Christians think it is a "bad" thing. It all depends upon your point of view.

ZZ

I don't know, ZZ. Either I'm missing your point or you're missing mine. I'm talking about committed Christians who say that God is not good. One even told me that he thinks it's entirely possible that God is an insane monster, but he worships Him nevertheless because He is God. Another insists that the idea that God loves anyone but the people in his sect (the only true Christians) is a misconception deliberately perpetrated by atheists. Just the other day I read a long conversation at a Christian Internet site the gist of which was incomprehension at how so many people got the mistaken idea that God was benevolent.

Since I believe man creates god in his own image as he goes along, I find the implications of all this disturbing. I think at least a portion of mankind has benevolence mixed up with weakness. They are frightened and require a god they perceive as strong, so they are remaking god... or returning him to the Old Testament tyrant that the Israelites took so much pride in and so many orders to smite people from.

Well, I must admit that I think (predictably) that these people are extremist in their thinking. I would be interested in reading some of what you saw to see if I can determine where they draw their ideas.

I must say, Wog, that my personal belief is that the greatest threat to true Christians come from within what is commonly referred to as the Christian community. As I have said many times, there are lots of people that take the label but a fairly small percentage that are truly Christian. When push comes to shove, there is a very good chance that the minority, within, that make them uncomfortable would be their first target.

ZZ

Some of this was in face-to-face conversation, but I'll try to find the discussion that was on the Internet as soon as I have a few consecutive minutes and either post excerpts or a link.