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BigFelix
Warnings : 2
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Joined: Mar 19, 2008
Posts: 506
Location: San Diego
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 Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| Wogdog wrote: | | I keep wishing someone would produce a Spinoza for Dummies. |
Not so fast! There is Die Geschichte Der Philosophie Fur Dummies.
| Wogdog wrote: | | I have to confess that his writings make my head spin. |
About a year ago, I went to the library and borrowed the new bestseller Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity. It would appear that not only books by Sinoza make one's head spin, but also books about him! A few pages and I waved the white flag.
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Bertrand Russell
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BigFelix
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
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A few words on the original Hippocratic oath:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_oath
Note these passages:
To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death.
Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion.
What does this seem to say about physician-assisted suicide and abortion, eh?
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Bertrand Russell
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TotoCanReadto
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Joined: Jun 04, 2007
Posts: 741
Location: Togo
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| BigFelix wrote: | A few words on the original Hippocratic oath:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_oath
Note these passages:
To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death.
Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion.
What does this seem to say about physician-assisted suicide and abortion, eh? |
It says that your not supposed to do that stuff. 
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To the Women of Golgotha. Beware of Batman.
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ekrubtap
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Joined: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 868
Location: The Hinterland
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Kant | Quote: |
"Even if God were to make an immediate appearance, I would still need rational theology as a presupposition. For how am I to be certain that it is God himself who has appeared to me, or only another powerful creature?"
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Can God be a moral certainty? After all, at the end of the day, you only have "God"'s word for it. What if it's just Ol' Slewfoot pulling a fast one (working within the parameters of your mythology). It's hard to lay down with the lamb when your belly's distended, folks are trying to kill you, more often than not in the name of god, etc, etc.....
I would put it to you that belief in God is immoral in and of itself. The concept(and history) of God, and the belief in and of God, contributes and has contributed far more to the social ills that have plagued humanity, than, on balance, it has contributed to the good of society. Not to mention; the OT God has got to be one of the most immoral fictional characters to have inhabited the imagination of humanity.
I mean, "thou shalt not kill" except for my son And
Lot's wife, Er, Onan for spilling his seed (my patron saint), Those who danced naked around Aaron's golden calf (one of my fave things to do), Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord (as opposed to "Godfire" one supposes).
A blasphemer Lev.24:10-23,
A man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath Num.15:32-36, (dang, I'm sure I played that game on a Sunday)
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) Num.16:27,
Burned to death for offering incense Num.16:35, 26:10,
For complaining Num.16:49,
For "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" Num.25:9, BT
Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) Num.31:1-35,
Etc...to a grand total of 2,270,365+
(a tip of the ekrubhat to The Rational Response Squad at http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/rook_hawkins/biblical_errancy/3582 )
God says "thou shalt not kill"; God kills directly and by proxy, ergo God is immoral, Belief in an immoral God is, in itself, immoral.
And Spinoza makes my head Spin. I believe, though, JoannCQ, that Einstien cited Spinoza as a major influence. Cheers....
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ekrubtap
Major
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 868
Location: The Hinterland
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| BigFelix wrote: | A few words on the original Hippocratic oath:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_oath
Note these passages:
To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death.
Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion.
What does this seem to say about physician-assisted suicide and abortion, eh? |
It means that in ancient Greece these issues were poorly understood and what understanding was attempted was encumbered by a patriarchical worldview. I don't think you can really make a connection between expressions of antiquity and the practice of medicine today.
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esacnitsuj
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TotoCanReadto
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Joined: Jun 04, 2007
Posts: 741
Location: Togo
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| ekrubtap wrote: | | BigFelix wrote: | A few words on the original Hippocratic oath:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_oath
Note these passages:
To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death.
Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion.
What does this seem to say about physician-assisted suicide and abortion, eh? |
It means that in ancient Greece these issues were poorly understood and what understanding was attempted was encumbered by a patriarchical worldview. I don't think you can really make a connection between expressions of antiquity and the practice of medicine today. |
In Greece they had no religion encumbering them
And Religion is the Evil that influences, they saz (Ozzy Osbourne said so in his Black Rain album).
So that the greek muther said no to killing her grandchild is as true today as it was way back in antiquity.
For grandmas anyhoo.
Maybe the doctors better keep on listening to this antiquiated info.
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To the Women of Golgotha. Beware of Batman.
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JoAnnCQ
Warnings : 2
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Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 1274
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| ekrubtap wrote: | God says "thou shalt not kill"; God kills directly and by proxy, ergo God is immoral, Belief in an immoral God is, in itself, immoral.
And Spinoza makes my head Spin. I believe, though, JoannCQ, that Einstien cited Spinoza as a major influence. Cheers.... |
Hi ekrubtap,
The first is a syllogism (or sort've anyway) & I'm Not real keen on that logic/reason/critical?thinking, I myelf prefer geometry. Although I do just Luv to Solipsize (& honestly, who doesn't?) & I almost always agree with Kant. I just love where those thoughts take me.
Spinoza will make most anyone's head spin & yes I agree with you there. But what's wrong with that? Head spinning I mean. In a certain frame of mind, Spinoza makes absolute & perfect sense. & How to get to that frame of mind? (But first You have to want to go there & do You?) & there are sooooo many ways (& most of them would get censored out of existence here) Alright & ok, these are g-rated things to do to "get there." Art, Science (I like to think Art is Science (& Science Art) but some disagree & I won't (or can't kant even go there) to pick the nits y'know?) & the form of Art You choose is really up to You - Music, Performance, Literature, Sculpture (really works) Dance (does too) & sooooo Many More ways.
& bitw this is starting to remind me of one of those things with Bingo where I was trying to explain an expanding universe using a balloon sooooo
I think I'll quit while I'm ahead here or behind for that matter.
Bye!
Luv & Piece,
JoAnn
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ekrubtap
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Posts: 868
Location: The Hinterland
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:11 am Post subject: |
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JoAnnCQ, you made me smile. I used to converse with Kokopelli, the trickster, and Baba Ram Das, tho these days my conversations are more relaxed and generally take place at about 4:20 some afternoons. While sometimes taking somewhat of a philosophical bent, our conversations touched mainly on Art and beauty, sensation and impression.
I do tend to find the whole solypsis thing a sort of chicken and egg proposition (Though I have a good idea re the chicken & egg)
Descarte's whole cogito ergo thing, I mean, sum ergo cogito, cogito ergo cogito sum, cogito ergot sum. Feel free to figuratively trout slap me here if I'm way off base. I'm not huge on philosophy, having just read a few books out of curiosity.
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JoAnnCQ
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ekrubtap
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esacnitsuj
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Joined: Mar 06, 2003
Posts: 1859
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Hi enegue,
But Bingo posted:
| Quote: | Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
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And Jesus prayed, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. And they divided His garments and distributed them by casting lots for them.
Now the people stood by [calmly and leisurely] watching; but the rulers scoffed and sneered (turned up their noses) at Him, saying, He rescued others [from death]; let Him now rescue Himself, if He is the Christ (the Messiah) of God, His Chosen One!
The soldiers also ridiculed and made sport of Him, coming up and offering Him vinegar (a sour wine mixed with water)
And saying, If you are the King of the Jews, save (rescue) Yourself [from death].
For there was also an inscription above Him in letters of Greek and Latin and Hebrew: This is the King of the Jews.
One of the criminals who was suspended kept up a railing at Him, saying, Are You not the Christ (the Messiah)? Rescue Yourself and us [from death]!
_____________________
The Two Men, Adam and Eve.
One cried about the sin of the other, one to forgive the other.
How many times do we blame other.
Either for being poor, or ignorant, or burnt out.
With a surprised glare, or smirk.
The other guy is wrong, not them.
Jesus didn't cluck his tongue and rage against them though.
How difficult it is to be like Jesus. |
Must be enegues son that bad 'ol Bingo who admitted lying to me + others in a public forum. Are you Bingo (Toto/Lucy) the inbred son of enegue = Eugene! You're beliefs are exactly like Eugeneie's  But we have the right to chose eh? What we want/do/believe in/et el! Have a GR8 day people! I am! (if I wasn't craving a G.D. Ciggy butt  ). We have "freedom of choice" You choose to be Eugene's ilegit Son, then go 4 it!
Peace Y'all 
_________________
Warm Regards,
David (esacnitsuj)
EULAGree With Security 
| Quote: | "A Weak Mind Can Be Easily Controlled!"
"Ni Bastori Carborundum" ©1963 SQIV |
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ekrubtap
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Joined: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 868
Location: The Hinterland
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | A God out there and values out there, if they existed, would be utterly useless and unintelligible to us. There is nothing to be gained by nostalgia for the old objectivism, which was in any case used only to justify arrogance, tyranny, and cruelty. People [forget] ... how utterly hateful the old pre-humanitarianism world was.
- Don Cupitt, Crisis of Moral Authority. (1972)
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Wkipedia on Don Cupitt | Quote: | He was educated in both science and theology at Cambridge University in the 1950s and was ordained as a deacon in the Church of England in 1960. He was Dean of Emmanuel College, Cambridge. Although still technically a priest, he is now better known as a writer, broadcaster and populariser of innovative theological ideas. He has written forty books, which have been translated into Dutch, Persian, Polish, Korean, Portuguese, Danish, German, and Chinese, as well as chapters in more than thirty multi-authored volumes.
He came to the British public's attention in 1984 with his BBC television series Sea of Faith, in which orthodox Christian beliefs were challenged. He is currently a key figure in the Sea of Faith network, a group of spiritual "explorers" who share Cupitt's concerns, based in the UK, New Zealand and Australia.
In his writings, Cupitt sometimes describes himself as Christian Non-realist. This means that he follows certain spiritual practices and attempts to live by ethical standards traditionally associated with Christianity, without believing the actual existence of the underlying metaphysical entities (such as "Christ" and "God"). |
A dogmatic religious world view presupposes the imposition of an external moral viewpoint that makes it difficult to develope a personal moral compass. Religion requires adherence to specific moral standards from it's participants, beginning at a very young age in most cases.
The fact that religious moral scruples appear somewhat flexible in actual practice (not to mention Biblically) can only have a detrimental effect on developing youthful psyches, making it difficult if not impossible to develope that all important personal moral compass.
We don't require outside moral influence, we all have an internal sense of the good and the bad (whether or not we choose either or). Children are capable of empathy, and would develope good moral sense given a chance (an atmosphere relatively free of immoral behavior).
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JoAnnCQ
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ekrubtap wrote: | | Children are capable of empathy, and would develop good moral sense given a chance (an atmosphere relatively free of immoral behavior). |
Hi There,
I agree with You whole-heartedly  I have seen evidence of this ability in children (& adult people) many times. When given a chance, time & time again, children & adults rise to the occasion. Higher ground. It's something beautiful to see too.
i gotta go now! bye!
Peace & Love,
JoAnn
If love is outlawed, only outlaws will love
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esacnitsuj
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Joined: Mar 06, 2003
Posts: 1859
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Ekrubtap 
| Quote: | Wkipedia on Don CupittQuote:
He was educated in both science and theology at Cambridge University in the 1950s and was ordained as a deacon in the Church of England in 1960. He was Dean of Emmanuel College, Cambridge. Although still technically a priest, he is now better known as a writer, broadcaster and populariser of innovative theological ideas. He has written forty books, which have been translated into Dutch, Persian, Polish, Korean, Portuguese, Danish, German, and Chinese, as well as chapters in more than thirty multi-authored volumes.
He came to the British public's attention in 1984 with his BBC television series Sea of Faith, in which orthodox Christian beliefs were challenged. He is currently a key figure in the Sea of Faith network, a group of spiritual "explorers" who share Cupitt's concerns, based in the UK, New Zealand and Australia.
In his writings, Cupitt sometimes describes himself as Christian Non-realist. This means that he follows certain spiritual practices and attempts to live by ethical standards traditionally associated with Christianity, without believing the actual existence of the underlying metaphysical entities (such as "Christ" and "God"). |
I, David, understand your post very well & all I can say right now is it IS GR8.
Kudos 
I can't stay online too long, as I'm re-cooping from last night  . I don't feel that well....YET
Y'all Have Peace!
_________________
Warm Regards,
David (esacnitsuj)
EULAGree With Security
| Quote: | "A Weak Mind Can Be Easily Controlled!"
"Ni Bastori Carborundum" ©1963 SQIV |
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