That is true.

My 36 hours would've been up at 2pm, around the time I normally go to bed. At half past midnight, I figured it was close enough. I installed Norton SystemWorks 2004 (which I have running on quite a few computers in its updated form with no problems), connected to the Internet and started updating it.

Just like updating Windows, Norton's LiveUpdate does a couple of updates at a time with a restart in between. During one of these restarts, the screen froze. I could just about make out the Windows XP logo screen, but very dark and dim, as though it froze while fading in or out. I checked the keyboard and found that not even the caps lock and num lock would work, and I had to reset.

This crash behaved very much like the freeze I usually get, but it normally only seems to happen when Windows has been running for some time, so I'm not entirely sure this was the same thing. It may have been some one-off deal. If it was the usual problem, then it looks like Norton is the cause, and I'm sure it will happen again in the next 36 hours to confirm it.

I continued with the Norton updates until it said there were no more to get. Then I disconnected and set Norton to perform a full system scan. After it finished I started up Pinball in demo mode again.

In the unlikely event of there being no crash in the next 36 hours, I guess I'll install ZoneAlarm next.

I have heard of Norton causing problems, but nothing like what you are seeing. Strange.

Just a thought: if I could install Vista, how likely is it that the problem would just disappear?

(pc still not crashed since last post)

In a PC that old I wouldn't try it. It may meet the minimum specs, but still not be enough to run Vista smoothly. Vista uses more resources than XP just in running itself.

Ok.

Well, after another 36 hours with no crashes, I installed ZoneAlarm Pro from a cd and connected to the net to update it. Now I guess I wait again...

btw, here's everything I can think of that I did last time but haven't yet done this time:

1. installed BeyondCompare2 and used it to check some data on a data dvd.

2. set up and updated Windows Media Player (it comes with XP but it seems it isn't really set up until you run it for the first time).

3. made some partitions - I have 2 hard drives, 200GB and 300GB. Right now the only partition I have is 127.99GB which is apparently all XP could deal with pre-SP1.

4. installed a slideshow screensaver, from http://www.freewaresite.com/screensavers/slideshow.html - I prefer it to the one that comes with Windows and I've used it for years.

5. copied over a gig of stuff from a data dvd, mostly images for the screensaver, but also including a lot of html files and an ISO. Not sure which hard drive/partition I copied them onto.

Having both Norton and ZoneAlarm installed, I was able to spend some hours browsing the web on the pc today... until it crashed. It happened long before the 36 hours were up, with the usual symptoms - frozen screen, no response from mouse or keyboard, had to reset. So it looks to me like the problem may be with ZoneAlarm or possibly Norton.

The best plan I can come up with is to use System Restore to go back a few days (I've kept a record of what I've done so far and when, and I've checked there are System Restore points for each day), and then install an alternative security suite.

I'll wait for your suggestions before proceeding.

Since my last post, pc ran for 40 hours solid with no crashes. During this time I used it to browse the web, get music via direct download, install Winrar, install/update Windows Media Player, and play some music. Norton and ZA are still installed, yet no crash.

After 40 hours I installed Steinberg Clean, for ripping music from vinyl. This involved a restart. About 7 hours later, I was browsing again and the computer froze again. Clean isn't the problem, as I haven't installed it before.

It still seems very difficult to determine the cause, because evidently even 40 hours without seeing a problem doesn't mean the problem isn't there. If I stick to my plan and use System Restore to uninstall Norton and ZA, I'd have to wait over 40 hours to find out if the problem's still there, and even then not be totally sure (if it doesn't crash).

Very frustrating, as you can imagine.

With no other suggestions, I decided to try the plan I suggested. System Restore didn't work - "Restoration Incomplete - Your computer cannot be restarted to...". I tried an earlier date, I tried disabling Norton, I tried Safe Mode, but couldn't get System Restore to work.

So I manually uninstalled everything I've done since Saturday when I started getting crashes again - Norton and related stuff, Clean, ZA, uTorrent and even Winrar. Installed and ran CCleaner. Installed Kaspersky Internet Security 8, and also Adobe Reader and uTorrent.

I'm hoping/assuming that Norton was causing the problem. Wish me luck...

I went to bed thinking that the problem was probably Norton, and planning which apps I was gonna install next and which projects I was gonna catch up on first.

My son says when he got up this morning my pc was frozen again.

So if it wasn't Norton or ZA, the last thing I did before installing them was updating Windows and installing drivers via the net. I suppose the logical next step would be to get the computer back to how it was before I did those things (i.e. start from scratch with only XP installed, so I may as well repartition again) and leave it for longer than 36 hours this time.

I don't know if anyone's still reading this thread, but here's an update, for posterity if nothing else ; )

On Friday I disconnected the Windows hard drive and made the other (unpartitioned) one the master. Then I installed XP on this drive. I didn't update it or connect to the internet or install anything. I copied some html files from a CD and spent a few days editing them.

This evening at 8pm the power went out at my house - it happens now and then. At this point the pc had been on for about 80 hours with no problems. Time to install something...

The logical thing would be to update Windows (come to think of it, it's not even activated yet...) But to do that I need to get online. I don't want to spend a few days online without protection, so I tried to install Kaspersky again. But you can't install it without SP2. So instead I installed Norton SystemWorks 2004. Now I plan to use the pc as it is for at least a few days without updating XP or Norton or even going online. Luckily I've got lots of files to edit. Next I should probably install ZoneAlarm again - when I do get the system online, I'll want to stay online a few days without updating/installing anything. I'm being extra careful this time.

Ok... after another 76 hours of problem-free use, it was time to move on. I installed ZoneAlarm Pro, but I had forgotten that this somehow stops the un-updated Norton AntiVirus Auto-Protect from working. I tried altering various settings, but in the end I uninstalled ZA, and lo! Norton Auto-Protect came back to life. So I'll have to do without a firewall for a bit. The un-updated Windows XP doesn't seem to have Windows Firewall...

So... I installed my wireless adapter and now I'm online, protected only by an out-of-date Norton SystemWorks until I update something, which I'll try not to do for a few days. When something goes wrong I want to be sure what caused it this time.

If all goes well I'll update XP next, then remove Norton and install Kaspersky instead...

This is getting more like a blog than a forum thread... if it goes on much longer I could make it into a book...

To cut a very long story a little bit shorter, I kept on as before, installing odds and ends gradually with no crashes. Then after 3 days continuous running without any restarts, I re-connected my other hard drive (as a second (slave) drive) late last night. I made sure it was working by copying some files off it, then I went to bed, and when I got up this morning it had frozen.

So the problem pretty much has to be with the hard drive. Three possibilities come to mind:

(1) A problem with a program or data on the hard drive.
(2) A problem with the way the drive is connected, IDE cable, configuration or something.
(3) A physical fault with the drive.

This is the drive I was using as the Windows drive up until July 4th. Before that it would operate for some decent periods of time, e.g. 40 hours, in tests, up until the Windows-screen-crash of 29th June during Norton updates. This suggests to me that (1) is far more likely than (2) or (3).

This time around, apart from using a different hd, I've done most of the same things, including a brief installation of Norton, except I didn't update Norton. So I still suspect Norton as the culprit, more specifically Norton updates.

This morning I unformatted the suspect hd but left it connected. I'm keeping the pc on again to see if the crash occurs again, which should help narrow down the cause.

Any comments?

After typing out that last post, I realised that there was one more thing that I did last time around which I hadn't done this time - Device Manager was saying that there were no drivers installed for the USB Controller. I decided I may as well install the driver because it wouldn't involve a restart. In hindsight this was a bad move, as I've had no problems using USB devices without installing this controller so I probably don't need it, and also it meant that I made 2 changes to the system at the same time, making it harder to identify the cause of further problems.

This afternoon I was typing away and the pc froze again - with the suspect hd still unformatted. So it seems the diagnosis I made in the previous post may have been wrong. I disconnected the troublesome hd (ide and power leads), but when I switched on I got "IDE DRIVES INSTALLATION ERROR - For best reliability & performance, please change the stand alone slave drive to master. System Halt..." The hard drives are using a Cable Select lead with black, grey and blue connectors. I plugged the black one into the hd instead of the grey one and it worked ok. Doesn't this mean that the suspect hd was acting as Master when the recent crashes occurred? If so, how is it that the xp that was running was the one on the other drive?

[This reminds me that when I reconnected the suspect hd it first went into the version of xp that was on it instead of the one that I'm now working with, and I swapped the connectors around to get it to go into the other xp]

Would it be better to set the drives to Master and Slave using the jumpers, rather than rely on Cable Select? I don't seem to have another black/grey/blue lead - can I plug a normal ide cable into the blue slot on my motherboard? I hope I get a response to these questions.

I also performed a System Restore to 20/7 18:45 System Checkpoint, to undo the USB driver update and anything else that might've changed. So now in theory I'm back where I was on Sunday before I reconnected the suspect hd. I'm waiting to see if the crash happens again, but I would appreciate an answer to the ide cable questions above, please.

I see that my old friend Hoov is back on castlecops! Seems like a good time to update this thread...

3 days after my last post I installed the USB driver. 3 days after that (24 hours ago) I reconnected the suspect hd, which is still unformatted. This time I had no problems, the xp drive is still the master and behaving as such. I haven't seen a freeze/crash for a week.

I'll wait another 48 hours, then partition the hd, but leave it empty for a few days. I don't want to tempt fate, but it's looking good so far...