Rroper raises an interesting point about determinism. To what extent is God a hands-on manager?

My argument is that God could very easily call a press conference and definitively answer the question. Why he chooses not to, is an interesting question.

My take is that he made up the rules, gave us everything we need, and now he’s watching the show. I don’t mean to say we are God’s sit-com, but something close to it. “God, let us win this football game.” “Shut-up, I’m watching Tony Blair. He’s so funny.”

Many Texans are unwilling to believe that God does not fix sporting events. I suppose if both teams are praying, perhaps He doesn’t want to play favorites. The Godsquad vs the Heathens, There’s a game I want to see. I don’t expect it to happen, it would suck if the home team lost.

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence for miracles, but nothing that can be verified objectively. It’s nice that Aunt Mary’s cancer is in remission, but I don’t want to hear about it. I don’t know Aunt Mary, and it’s statistically insignificant.

Still I want to believe in miracles and the power of prayer. Praying to win the game is an abuse of the God hot-line. It would be better to pray for strength or wisdom , than for God to smite your enemies. Are you praying because your offense is weak?

If God intercedes at all, where does that mean to free will? Anybody? I’d like to use my lifeline to call Castle Cops.

— Wynn

I think the answer lies within your post. You said:

"My argument is that God could very easily call a press conference and definitively answer the question. Why he chooses not to, is an interesting question."

But obviously, as you said yourself, He does not. Whether there is anyone there to "choose", is another issue, but all we know there is... nothing ever from this supposed entity we all call God. Not even when horrible disasters happen, like Katrina, or the deluge in Indonesia. Frankly, I don't see why God would care this time around, we can all remember He had no qualms drowning a whole Earth before, and if some God had a hand in modern disasters, clearly he wouldn't give a dime to talk about it one way or another. Now of course, there are the people who will claim that God does gives press conferences, but of course, only they are there when it happens and they are the only "press core" invited. This happens in many churches all the time, especially in fundamentalist ones. One cannot forget Pat Robertson's callous and vile remarks, when he said that God was punishing people with natural disasters, for their "sin". So apparently, either "God" gave him an interview, or the guy is a lunatic. Well, he is a lunatic. But of course, nobody would give credence to such "news conferences" anyway, for they are not. It is more probable that there is no one there to give the news conference, because simply put, there is no God, except for what we feel in our hearts, sprinkled with that all important ingredient called tradition, kept alive through churches and the religious books of the world. But that which we feel in our hearts is no God at all and means nothing. We have manufactured religious books and set up God (take your pick here), to satisfy that urgent need in our hearts, to explain the unknown and bring it ever closer to our world, and then we called it God. There might have been an intelligent source to our particular Universe, but to personify this unknown and say that its anthropomorphic manifestation cares for the particular inhabitans of a far away planet in some meaningless gallaxy in a distant corner of space is really far fetched and highly improbable. The Universe would seem like an amazing waste of space in this case. So why does God choose not to care, or at least make an effort to show He cares pro forma? Because He's most likely not really there, as we do not need God to explain things, since calculations of probability offer sufficient explanations for events.

So to answer you question: There's no one there to make a choice to show He cares for this particular animal of many on this planet, i.e., the human animal.

I think because there is grossness, and this is allowed by God.
That god acts here and there, and not everywhere should be no surprise.

Agnos, do me a favor. Stop assuming that you can speak for me in your opinions.

"WE" do not agree that there is "nothing ..... ever from this supposed entity ..." Your opinion is just that, yours. I am already tired of correcting your mistaken ideas about what I think. Please stop.


Wynne,
More later.

ZZ

Hi Wog, I meant to include a disclaimer inviting atheists, agnostics , and small dogs to reply to this post.

I deleted it on the original post because it was distracting. I find it’s better to make one point at a time in this forum.

My take is that praying for understanding works. Hoping for miracles is an extreme long shot. All is vanity, and a striving after the winds.

— Wynn

Wog,

Now that you mention it, ZZ, could you please elaborate on what specific information you have on the matter that would contradict my affirmation? Frankly, belief is of no importance here, and I am not obliged to entertain or cocoon anyone's spurious and unreasonable beliefs based on some ancient testimonial frenzy. When I presented the statement you are concerned about, I was not impling that I place any credence on a person's beliefs, or that these beliefs are pertinent to our conversation. I was simply stating an affirmation of FACT, and since you are questioning it, I invite you to please provide what evidence you have to prove my assertion wrong.

Furthermore, ZZ, it appears that just as I posited earlier, even the slightest challenge to the manufactured and illegitimate claims buttressing the fundamentalist status quo will launch a swift and less than cordial campaign of intimidation and pressure to accept the dogma. I, for one, prefer to retain a tone of voice that does not presume to bully its way across the conversational divide. I am confident that you will offer no less in return. Nevertheless, since you have stated you are privy to privileged information as to a certain God having contacting you in a manner that would negate my statement you contest, please do not hesitate to make that available to the public.

Wog,
I see what you are getting at. When I read this, I see Agnos including "all" of us in the entire statement. In the light of day I can see that his first "we" could have just been referring to he and Wynne and the "we all" to the term "God".

I apologize to you, Wynne and Agnos for posting before I understood.

ZZ

Hey, ZZ, no problem, I also apologize for inadvertently and in a way, - by way of pursuing logical argumentation and contiguous trains of thought to their logical conclusion, - having to bump into sacred territory with the more evangelical believers, such as yourself. I feel very guilty because of this, but I find myself in a position that does not allow my tacit acceptance of certain traditions I used to take for granted. It is something that is tearing me apart in a way, because I know people hold on to their beliefs dearly, as I used to, before I started to distinguish the difference between tradition and reality. If, during our conversations and debate, I fail to maintain a high standard of communication and if anything I say comes across as insensitive, I must apologize profusely in advance and I assure you I do respect my partners in debate, otherwise I wouldn't be debating with them, but with someone else. May we find some satisfying common truth as we embark upon this spiritual and intellectual trek.


I am still fine-tuning my conversational meter to this particular forum, so please be patient with me. If anything offends anyone, please let me know and I will adjust to accommodate any sensibilities.

Good question, Wynne.

As far as I can see, God has been hands-on in regard to putting all the important things in place down through history so that redemption is possible for anyone who wants it.

The key phrase here is, "for anyone who wants it." Everything that God has done through history has been for the purpose of making himself known. Paul says:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
-- Romans 1:20-21

Now, what does it mean, "when they knew God, they glorified him not as God"? Simply that there have been, and are, and will always be, souls who are witness to unmistakeable physical manifestions of God, but who still chosen to turn away. The OT is riddled with examples, and the NT has the greatest manifestation of them all - the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
-- John 1:1-5

I want to be redeemed from this creation because my God tells me that it's only purpose was to bring to perfection that which He created as very good. It was only ever a crucible for refining precious things. If our precious things are not His precious things, what is a loving, egalitarian God to do? Leave each man to his precious things, of course.

Cheers and God bless,
enegue