Wog,
You appear to be selective in your reading. JoAnn's on her soap box now.

I don't know anything about Craig. Why should it matter to me what he says? My religious belief isn't based upon the words of another man. He has no authority over me and I have none over him. He has the God given right to believe what he chooses to believe. If you want to know if he is correct or not, study it out for yourself. Look to God for the answer, not me.

This is the same mistake you always make. You look at people and judge their actions rather than looking to God. You and I have discussed this before. All of this is just the same old thing, over and over. You should be aware of my position.

So far I agree with everything Cylon has written and I do that because I STUDY the Bible and I look to God for direction and instruction. What he is writing agrees with what I have learned in my studies of the Bible. Jesus Christ is our Lord and Master and, as I have said so many times before, it doesn't matter what "I" want. (THAT would be limiting God, Joann. ) If the Creator of this world doesn't know what is best, I certainly don't.

Does that mean I toss my judgment? Absolutely not. It means that I must work harder to determine what is and is not correct. I am responsible to consider more than my own faulty views and feelings. I have an obligation to measure what I see and hear against something higher than any man.

You want a concrete answer to a question that has no real meaning to me. It doesn't really apply to the topic we have discussed. I have no reason to believe that God would ask me to kill a child. I have no recollection of this ever being the case except with Abraham and it is very clear that it was never God's intention that Abraham actually take his son's life.

This question you are asking about killing children, goes the other way too. Would you kill me or my children if it would improve the economic or political position of this country? That's not such a far fetched question as it may appear.

You've taken a snap shot of a leaf and decided that it frames all there is to see of a tree. You're focusing on people for answers. This will ALWAYS lead you to confusion. IF you want to know, look to the source and Study it for yourself. What I have written here, all these years, and what Cylon writes now should lead you to the source of our information for confirmation. It is possible that we are wrong and you will never know for sure IF you don't bother to check for yourself.

This subject you continue to return to is a hard subject. Hard, meaning that it requires study. It hinges upon many other concepts in the Bible. Your "snapshot" view of the subject is bound to mislead you simply because you don't have enough information in your frame of reference.

ZZ

ZZ, you appear to be selective in your reading, or maybe your comprehension just wasn't very good. I have not had the experience of asking JoAnn a question and having her in response deliver a sermon that doesn't address the question and touches on the topic only tangentially. If you think JoAnn is on a soapbox, take it up with her.

I didn't ask you anything about Craig. You inserted yourself into an ongoing conversation about him. You certainly aren't required to care about what he has to say, and I am certainly not required to confine my conversations with other people to topics that you know about or are interested in.

I don't know why you think I'm not aware of your position on topics we have actually addressed, and I don't know why you think that should have anything to do with my conversation with somebody else. If you would like to suggest a new topic for you and me to discuss, please do so. I would suggest that if your only purpose is to try to control my conversations with others, you should talk to someone who is easier to control.

The rest of your post just amounts to the same ol' mysterious ways cop-out.

I'm late for a meeting. Gotta run.

Wog,

The first post I made on page 4 was not directed at anyone in particular. It was a general statement about the prevailing attitude towards Cylon. Several people are insisting that Cylon change his approach to posting simply because they don't like it. I was pointing out that this isn't HIS problem.

You appear to have assumed my post was directed at you alone. You brought up Craig to me. I didn't mention him or even care until YOU mentioned him to me. Take a look.

You are right about JoAnn, she isn't doing any of that... to YOU. It's happened to me plenty of times. She can get on her soap box all she wants as far as I'm concerned. Note that it was you that introduced that term and connected it to JoAnn. My comments were directed at the fact that JoAnn also posts a lot of quotes from various texts yet no one has asked her to stop. Bit of a double standard there, isn't it.

I wasn't aware that we are no longer allowed to "insert" ourselves into "ongoing conversations". Has this forum really degenerated that far? Did the PM system break down so you carry on private conversations here now? Last time I looked, I was still free to post comments on the threads in this forum. Did something change or is it just inconvenient to have a Christian that is much better acquainted with your views in the thread?

ZZ

JoAnn,
Post or don't post. I don't care one way or another. If you want to get on a soap box, do so. With the exception of Cylon, that's about all that is happening in this forum now anyway.

I simply pointed out the double standard of insisting that a Christian shouldn't quote the Bible when no one has asked you to stop posting your quotes.

You HAVE made a lot of post that basically say the same thing. Once Wog brought it up, I realized that "soap box" is the term I would apply to them too. I don't see it as negative as you appear to see it. We all get on one now and then.

I'm sorry you took offense but I honestly don't feel responsible. It's a choice that I can't stop you from making. I don't see what withdrawing from the thread accomplishes since you aren't effecting anyone but yourself if you do. Maybe you just need a break.

ZZ

You are absolutely free to speak to anyone you like and join a conversation at any point. I didn't say you should never insert yourself in an ongoing conversation; I simply pointed out that you did. I was trying to get you to understand that there was a topic under discussion at the moment you joined in. I have offered to discuss that topic or anything else with you that you want to discuss. That didn't make you happy, so I don't know exactly what it is you want me to do other than to stop asking a question if you think you have already answered it. I am not willing to play by that rule. I can't stop you from reacting negatively when I or someone else broaches a topic with someone other than you. I can't stop you from trying to get me to accept what you say as the final word on any given topic and or from trying to discourage further discussion on a topic about which you have spoken. You just need to be prepared for failure.

You entered this conversation immediately after I asked cylon to stop hiding behind scripture and speak for himself. The only post between mine and yours was David's in which he seconded my request. You said, "I went to a lot of work over the years to "simplify" these concepts for you. You didn't understand any better then." The only people who were parties to the conversation at that point whom you might have been addressing were David and I. Perhaps you did go to a lot of trouble to simplify some concepts for David at some time, but if you did it was before I registered at Castlecops almost 3 1/2 years ago. I believe you meant those comments to be directed at me. Since then I have offered to discuss with you either the topic already under discussion or another topic, but you have refused both offers in favor of attacking JoAnn. Now you accuse me of having connected getting on a soapbox to JoAnn, which I most assuredly did not do. You are the one who did that. If you want to insult JoAnn, that's up to you, but please don't try to implicate me. You have accomplished one of your apparent objectives, which I believe was to prevent any further discussion of Christian command theory. Congratulations. I don't blame you. If I were a Christian, I wouldn't want to discuss it either. At this point I can't think of anything to do that would rectify this situation except to refrain from talking with you until you get into a better mood.

I have a pretty thick skin meaning I don't get offended that easily. In fact, if something gets me angry, I usually take it as a sign to look closer. I don't feel that way about what ZZ said. It's more like feeling indifferent & disappointed. & I'm back to say - do what You want, say what You will - I don't give a flying you know what. & since I'm back here on this thread, I'll get up on my soapbox once again. (Just realize I'd much rather be doing something Joyful - hey maybe I'll take a nice long hot soapy bubble bath after I post this?)

Xians believe the Bible is the only Source. Other religions believe in other Books. Some religionists believe You need to be moved by something “other” in order to recognize that their book is the only Source, & that all others are wrong.

Xians speak about being saved. Coming from a background of Catholicism, I was not familiar with this term, seems to be more of a Protestant invention? It is a thinly-veiled threat to speak about being saved to someone who is unfamiliar with this term. Like it's “My way or the highway.” & saved from what? Or from who? A serial killer on a rampage? More of the same Fear & Hysteria.

& When Xians say things like:.

JACQ,

Your post was Right On

Zippy,

The Religion forum hasn't changed that much except for the fact that you & enegue had left.

Many "Atheists" who did have something to say were IMHO, very unacceptable to most Christians, so they get BANNED, and for what? Speaking thier minds? What ever happened to free speach. No Athiest(s) were really putting Christians down, they were just exposing Biblical errors & such. Most made no offensive comments directed at any one particular person, but I think, IMHO, what they had to say & exposing Biblical errors & such seemed to really upset some people and what happens? They get banned for really no reason at all!

I don't ever remember any Atheist "Attacking" and "Name calling" to any certain people, although I did when I wasn't in my right mind after NDEs & spending near 2.5 months in Palliative Care. I should not have come on to CC just after discharge. I was still sick, disoriented and made stupid attacks at some people for what reason I don't know? I made my appologies though. If certain people chose not to accept my appologies because of the way I was. Thinking I was "Joking" around, et al, then that is thier preogative!

I read back on some of my posts whilst I was just out of Palliative & right back on to CC & it shocked me! I said to myself that that was not ME at all! Anyhow, that's past now, and what is past is past & should remain there. We should all be happy for today. That we have our health & are still alive to post about it and look forward to the future & hope & pray things, issues on earth get better, not worst!

We should ALL act upon making the future better for ALL of us whether it be Christians, different religions, Atheists, Agnostics, Pagan/Wiccan, etc. We should all get together to make this world a better place no matter what our beliefs are, yet most all we do is fight back & forth on this forum talking about "The Rapture", people who are Atheist, Agnostic, etc. are BAD people but are no such thing! There is good & bad in all of us. Most chose to be/do good, but other make thier choice to be bad, do evil, etc.

They're the ones who don't care what happens to any single one of us. They only look out for themselves. In thier minds, they are #1 & scr*w anyone else! Now that to me IS bad/evil.

IMHO, we should ALL get together. People of ALL different religions, atheists, agnostics, pagan/wiccans, gentiles, etc. & discuss how to make this world a better place without all the bickering back & forth & "you're wrong & I'm right" & vica versa!

We must get off our "High Horses" and humble ourselves enough to have discussions on different issues without going off the deep end, e.g. as I call it "Religious Forum Wars"! Why? What does this achieve? I'll tell you...NOTHING but bitterness & anger, judgment & hypocrisy! I don't want these things & I'm sure many of you on here don't want it either?

I don't care what religion you are or what "label" is palced on who you are. Just be GOOD people without as I call it the "Religion Forum Wars". There are ways of discussing issues without all the nonsense!

Why do we need to fight about who's good & who's evil? Why argue that you're better that or your religion is better than mine and vica versa. Like I mentioned, it gets us nowhere except all upset & angry at certain people.

We just need to be more civil towards one another. This is a "Religion" forum, not a "Fight Club"

These are just my opinions. I would like to see everyone who is on this forum or just joins get along, but it just seems impossible, BUT it is possible. That's the thing. We just don't want to admit it! We are all right or wrong in our own hearts & minds. Most times we just don't want to admit it!

We must humble ourselves in our discussions with one another. Do any of you think that it is possible? Probably not, but ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE, if we just put our minds, hearts & souls to it!

Sorry for the long post, but I had to get this off my chest regarding the goings on in this forum. It just makes me angry/upset/nervous, etc, most times & is not good for my mental state & pyhsical health's state & IMHO, not good for ANYONE's mental/physical state here on this forum either!

I'll close in saying that the issues I posted are MY beliefs & MY humble opinion(s).
All Take Good Care. (I wouldn't bother to type it if I didn't mean it!) God Bless to all the believers of the Bible & "God" and most of all Respect, Love for one another & of course PEACE!

_________________
Warm Regards,
David (esacnitsuj)
EULAGree With Security

Wog,
I can see where you might think I'm in a "bad mood". I apologize. I'm really not, I'm just rushed. I also apologize if you didn't intend to go down the "your God kills children" path again. It certainly appeared that way to me but perhaps I jumped to a conclusion.

As I already wrote, my original point was simply that the prevailing feelings seems to be that Cylon should change his approach to posting. I simply pointed out that the problem isn't with Him. I didn't address anything else or even a specific person until my first post on page 4 garnered responses.

BTW, just to clarify, please return to your last post on page 4. You quoted the post I made in it's entirety then commented on it, so you can see everything in one place. Take a look at the bottom of your post and see where the soap boxes idea is introduced. Obviously you don't feel that JoAnn does what you see Cylon doing. I disagree. I think she does do what you described so I copied your term, "soap box" Personally, I don't think soap boxes are such a bad thing. Everyone gets on one now and then but if JoAnn is going to be insulted by the term, perhaps the person that introduced the idea into the "discussion" should accept a bit of the "blame" too.

As for my simplifications. I guess they weren't what I thought they were since you are unaware of them. I surely spent many hours rewording and rewriting what I posted in an attempt to make thing more clear. Evidently I failed but that was still my intent. I'm sorry they didn't work out because I hoped to clear up a lot of the misunderstanding about Christianity that abounds here. I suppose I should have recognized it earlier since everyone just keeps posting the same old misconceptions over and over.

I don't know what you are talking about when you accuse me of wanting to disrupt a discussion on "Christian command theory". It wasn't my intention at all. I was simply making a point about Cylon's posting. Nothing else. If I disrupted an ongoing discussion I apologize for the intrusion but, frankly, I don't feel responsible since I didn't ask for or particularly expect any prolonged responses to my original post. I actually figured it would be ignored.

Granted we are behind Avatars here but it seems you really know very little about me if you really believe I would have wanted to disrupt your discussion. The fact of the matter is that I have been hoping that something new would turn up here. If I had recognized anything new, I would have been much more incline to join it than try to end it. It seems that the idea of "benefit of the doubt" is dead and gone here.

At this point, I will bow out and allow you to return to your "regularly scheduled programming".

So Long.

ZZ

Well, ZZ, maybe it would have been better if I'd just ignored your post. Maybe I'm as guilty of being in a bad mood as you are. I can understand why you might think posting a bunch of scripture in response to questions is as legitimate and helpful as posting quotes from or links to other kinds of writing. I hope you can understand that there is a difference between posting scripture as a jumping-off point to discussion the way you have been known to do and posting scripture as the final and complete word on any topic or posting scripture followed only by a profession of belief in it. The latter approaches are not real discussion. I would prefer to engage in actual discussion and don't so much enjoy being preached at. If cylon wants to send me off to a website to read something someone else has written that expresses a viewpoint he wants to discuss, I'm happy to go there. Do you see what I'm getting at?

I am very well aware that I introduced the term "soapbox" into the conversation. I did not connect it to JoAnn. You did that. I don't think a person has to assume the responsibility of everyone else's use of a term just because he was the one who happened to use it first.

I didn't say you didn't try to simplify any concepts. I said it wasn't for David that you did it, at least not in the discussions I've been a part of, and that since it wasn't for David, I believed your comments about not understanding were addressed to me. I've expressed my appreciation numerous times for your efforts to give thoughtful and complete answers to questions I've asked. Perhaps you can understand that from where I stand there seem to be just about as many answers as there are Christians, so a subject that I have discussed thoroughly with you is still a subject about which I might want to converse with another Christian since his apologetics may be different. I don't know whether my discussion with cylon would have gone down the "God-kills-babies" path. It might have, had I been allowed to continue it. It would have depended on his answers to my questions. Those questions are still at issue. As JoAnn said, any takers?

It’s some kind of weird circular logic to quote from a book that You believe to be sacrosanct when others do not hold the same belief. This type of "logic" is effective when "preaching to the choir." Doesn't work so well with anyone else tho:

Person 1: Someone has an honest question. For example, Why is something ____?

Person 2: It says so in the Bible. (quotes from the Bible)

Person 1: But I don’t believe the Bible to be inerrant. I am familiar (or Not) with the Bible but I think it has many inconsistencies, sounds too much like earlier myths, the Name(less) described sounds psychotic, etc.

Person 2: This is why you should believe in the Bible. (quotes from the Bible)

Person 1: But I don’t believe the Bible to be inerrant. I am familiar with the Bible but I think it has many inconsistencies, sounds too much like earlier myths, the Name(less) described sounds psychotic, etc.

Person 2: Well let me just quote something else from the Bible. (quotes from the Bible)

Person 1: But I don’t believe the Bible to be inerrant. I am familiar with the Bible but I think it has many inconsistencies, sounds too much like earlier myths, the Name(less) described sounds psychotic, etc.

Person 2: Ok, here’s another quote from the Bible. (quotes from the Bible)

Person 1: But I don’t believe the Bible to be inerrant. I am familiar with the Bible but I think it has many inconsistencies, sounds too much like earlier myths, the Name(less) described sounds psychotic, etc.

Do You See What I mean?

& I have trouble understanding what You think You have been saying for years now here on this Forum. In a nutshell, I have a few thoughts about the things You have said through the years.

Your explanations or “simplifications” seem to amount to, on the one hand, to be “apologizing” for the inhuman behavior of Your Name(less) of Bible fame & notoriety. (I’m defining inhuman here as being cruel, jealous, petty, heartless, ruthless, brutal, cold-blooded, etc.)

& on the other hand, Your explanations or “simplifications” consist of shirking responsibility. You often claim it’s Not me & Not my Church. It’s those other Xians (who bitw aren’t really Xians, just me & my tiny sect are the only “true” or “real” Xians.)

WoW! I sure am glad Human (& humane) legal & judicial systems don’t work this way.

One of the reasons why it might be hard for some people to understand what You have been trying to explain or simplify is that it just doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. All the contradictions, twisting of words, etc. & then when all else fails, You blame another group of people, even those who call themselves Xians just like You do. Then the priority becomes explaining why they aren’t true Xians. Sheeesh, unless you're brainwashed or braindead, or have been taught or threatened never to question anything, or have no curiousity about the world around You, etc. this stuff is extremely hard to swallow.

This “jumping though hoops” type of logic seems to be so unnecessary. Potentially very Harmful too because of how easy it is to misinterpret. & it seems kind of desperate too.

& ZZ – would You mind clarifying for me what You consider it is that I continue to be saying over & over again (as in soapboxing)? I have quoted from many sources not just 1 source (others here seem to quote from only 1 source & this You seem to find acceptable.) Are there any quotes or any sources that you think I’ve misused? Or is it that you only pay attention if the quotes are from the only source you agree with & are therefore “annoyed” when anything other than this 1 source is quoted? I will take what You say to be constructive criticism. Please explain what You mean.

Back to the Topic! Where Have all the Xians Gone?

Any Takers? What happened to Cyclone or Eugenie or his daughter (she made the most sense out of the more recent bunch) or anyone else?

Bye!

Peace & Love,
JoAnn

Hi JACQuiee. Ouis ooh mais oiu! Ma belle ami! Que est çe tu fait çe soir ou demain soir?...LOL (J'aime la langue Français..Mon Dieu!)

JACQuiee Posted:

All I can say right now for that post is nice...Very nice!

You know how much I think of you & many others on this site?

Anyhow, gotta check my video uploads to/for YouTube. Take Care, especially JACQ et Wog et al...Also ZZ & Eugene, Egg, etc, but they're all gone with unaswered questions? Why disappear like that? Whomever you are and wherever you may be, because I do have "Love" just like JoAnn in my heart for ALL!

Hup on yer "Soapbox" my dear JACQuiee. J'aime Beaucoups!...Vraiment...Je ne pas dans plus du douleur maintenant et je régarde a tout les messages a JoAnn!

May You Always Have Love In Your and Peace!

_________________
Warm Regards,
David (esacnitsuj)
EULAGree With Security

Quote:

"A Weak Mind Can Be Easily Controlled!" "Ni Bastori Carborundum" ©1963 SQIV

I'll tell ya. It's a pretty wierd day when the Christians all left.

This site has really gone down hill all in the name of Religion!

IMHO, We should ALL keep our comments on Religion to ourselves! Religion (What/Whomever you are.) is a sacred thing to a lot of people. I do believe in "Treating Others As You'd Want to be Treated"...And I told y'all B4...I'm NOT a masochist

There's a lot of B.S. out there. I went out last night & there were 4 people who owed me $$$ for years! Between the 4 it came to @ $400.00. I NEVER see a thing from them! That's why I put my foot down on being nice. I forgive them. They're users, loosers & boozers and IMHO, that's not a nice thing at all!

Deplorable...Absolutely deplorable! Anyhow I did find out who my REAL FRIENDS were in the process!

Peace Y'all!

_________________
Warm Regards,
David (esacnitsuj)
EULAGree With Security