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Wynne-R
Major
Joined: Jul 30, 2005
Posts: 1411
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: Gitmo Tragedy |
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| Quote: | An eight-month McClatchy investigation of the detention system created after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks has found that the U.S. imprisoned innocent men, subjected them to abuse, stripped them of their legal rights and allowed Islamic militants to turn the prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba into a school for jihad.
After conceding control of the country to U.S.-backed Afghan forces in late 2001, top Taliban and al Qaida leaders escaped to Pakistan, leaving the battlefield filled with ragtag groups of volunteers and conscripts who knew nothing about global terrorism.
The majority of the detainees taken to Guantanamo came into U.S. custody indirectly, from Afghan troops, warlords, mercenaries and Pakistani police who often were paid cash by the number and alleged importance of the men they handed over. Foot soldiers brought in hundreds of dollars, but commanders were worth thousands. Because of the bounties — advertised in fliers that U.S. planes dropped all over Afghanistan in late 2001 — there was financial incentive for locals to lie about the detainees' backgrounds. Only 33 percent of the former detainees — 22 out of 66 — whom McClatchy interviewed were detained initially by U.S. forces. Of those 22, 17 were Afghans who'd been captured around mid-2002 or later as part of the peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan, a fight that had more to do with counter-insurgency than terrorism.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/detainees/story/38773.html |
They bought ‘em? That is so messed up.
— Wynn
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MississippiMud
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Joined: Jul 04, 2005
Posts: 649
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: |
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There is no excuse for torturing folks. NONE
It is tragic that the guvment over reacted to loosing a mere 3k citizens. Shoot we loose 15-16k each year to alcohol related traffic accidents It is high time we moved our mentality to the 21st century and accept the world we live in.
Lets face it, the government does not have the will to wage real war and the people don't have the stomach to deal with mickey mouse war.
We will just have to wait for an incident large enough for the people to demand action and be willing to back it up with sacrifice. Till then just deal with it.
There is no excuse for torturing folks. NONE
_________________
we have to get control of our minds back. the lives we live are illusory manifestations of the imagination of ourselves.
I refuse to tiptoe through life safely and without risk simply to arrive at death unharmed.
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VastlyRight
Captain
Joined: Nov 21, 2006
Posts: 557
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Gitmo Tragedy |
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| Quote: | Rear Adm. Mark H. Buzby, until recently the commanding officer at Guantanamo, said that detainees had supplied crucial information about al Qaida, the Taliban and other terrorist groups.
"Included with the folks that were brought here in 2002 were, by and large, the main leadership of al Qaida and the Taliban," he said in a phone interview. |
Seems to me we just may have gotten our money's worth
the article states
| Quote: | | Detainees at Guantanamo had no legal venue in which to challenge their detentions. The only mechanism set up to evaluate their status, an internal tribunal in the late summer of 2004, rested on the decisions of rotating panels of three U.S. military officers. The tribunals made little effort to find witnesses who weren't present at Guantanamo, and detainees were in no position to challenge the allegations against them. |
And yet also notes
| Quote: | | About 500 detainees — nearly two out of three — have been released. |
Of which McClatchy interviewed 66,from which we get this anecdote
| Quote: | The militants crept up behind Mohammed Akhtiar as he squatted at the spigot to wash his hands before evening prayers at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp.
They shouted "Allahu Akbar" — God is great — as one of them hefted a metal mop squeezer into the air, slammed it into Akhtiar's head and sent thick streams of blood running down his face. |
Does this not illustrate that some fanatics remain,even if they are"volunteers and conscripts who knew nothing about global terrorism".
Sure it would be nice if we did a better job of weeding out the few who are just goat herders and the like.But tragedy? not by half.Three thousand murdered is a tragedy!
[that's in one fell swoop,not the few here and there in DD related accidents.That sucks too but there is no logical comparison]
IMHO it's better to err on the side of caution and keep these lunatics out of circulation.Even low level jihadist drones pose a danger,never forget it was just such drones who sacrificed themselves on 9/11 to devastating effect.
_________________
Personal freedom will never go out of style, and that's at the root of conservatism. There isn't a problem in the world that doesn't have freedom as its best start in solving it."
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JoAnnCQ
Warnings : 2
Major
Premium Member
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 1274
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| MississippiMud wrote: | There is no excuse for torturing folks. NONE
It is tragic that the guvment over reacted to loosing a mere 3k citizens. Shoot we loose 15-16k each year to alcohol related traffic accidents It is high time we moved our mentality to the 21st century and accept the world we live in.
Lets face it, the government does not have the will to wage real war and the people don't have the stomach to deal with mickey mouse war.
We will just have to wait for an incident large enough for the people to demand action and be willing to back it up with sacrifice. Till then just deal with it.
There is no excuse for torturing folks. NONE |
Hi MMud,
A mere 3000 People? Mere as in? As if even 1 life is Not enuff human sacrifice already? Wha?
| Quote: | "He who saves one life... it is as if he saves an entire universe. He who destroys a life... it is as if he destroys an entire universe".
-The Talmud |
& I do agree when You say, "There is no excuse for torturing folks. NONE."
& does anyone else find the concept of Human Sacrifice "hard to stomach"?
Pretty darn barbaric if You ask me. I think civilization is a good idea. Maybe we as a Peoples should give it a whirl?
| Quote: | Attorney general repudiates habeas corpus:
Robert Parry of the Baltimore Chronicle wrote:
"In one of the most chilling public statements ever made by a U.S. Attorney General, Alberto Gonzales questioned whether the U.S. Constitution grants habeas corpus rights of a fair trial to every American."
"Responding to questions from Sen. Arlen Specter at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on Jan. 18, Gonzales argued that the Constitution doesn’t explicitly bestow habeas corpus rights; it merely says when the so-called Great Writ can be suspended. " 3
At a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on 2007-JAN-18, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales engaged in the following exchange with Senator Arlen Specter (R-PA), the committee's ranking Republican:
Gonzales: "There is no express grant of habeas in the Constitution. There's a prohibition against taking it away. ..."
Specter: "Wait a minute. Wait a minute. The Constitution says you can't take it away except in cases of rebellion or invasion. Doesn't that mean you have the right of habeas corpus unless there's an invasion or rebellion?"
Gonzales: "I meant by that comment, the Constitution doesn't say every individual in the United States or every citizen is hereby granted or assured the right to habeas. Doesn't say that. It simply says the right of habeas corpus shall not be suspended except..."
Specter: "You may be treading on your interdiction and violating common sense, Mr. Attorney General." 4
The implication is that the Attorney General believes that Congress can either reduce habeas corpus rights or eliminate them entirely, as they seem to have done in the Military Commissions Act of 2006.
Later during the hearing, the attorney general said.
"I believe that the right of habeas is something that's very, very important, one of our most cherished rights."
But he did not say that it is a universal right guaranteed to all prisoners in the U.S. -- citizens or not.
Erwin Chemerinsky, a professor at Duke University said:
"This is the key protection that people have if they're held in violation of the law. If there's no habeas corpus, and if the government wants to pick you or me off the street and hold us indefinitely, how do we get our release?''
Douglas Kmiec, a professor at Pepperdine University said that if Gonzales' view prevailed:
"One of the basic protections of human liberty against the powers of the state would be embarrassingly absent from our constitutional system.''
"Glossary of Legal Terms," Utah State Courts, at: http://www.utcourts.gov/
Nat Hentoff, "Wrong on habeas corpus ; Gonzales misstates the facts," The Washington Times, 2007-FEB-05, at: http://www.romingerlegal.com/
Robert Parry, "Gonzales Questions Habeas Corpus," Baltimore Chronicle, 2007-JAN-19, at: http://baltimorechronicle.com/
Bob Egelko, "Gonzales says the Constitution doesn't guarantee habeas corpus: Attorney general's remarks on citizens' right astound the chair of Senate judiciary panel," San Francisco Chronicle, 2007-JAN-24.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/habeas.htm
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Love & Peace,
JoAnn
oh & bitw VR I know this guy who's a proctologist, he calls himself a rear admiral too.
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VastlyRight
Captain
Joined: Nov 21, 2006
Posts: 557
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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From Congresspedia
| Quote: | | The MCA defines as "unlawful enemy combatants" as anyone who has "purposefully and materially" supported hostilities against the United States. This includes support that takes place off the battlefield. |
| Quote: | | The MCA created a system of military commissions — criminal courts run by the U.S. armed services — to try non-citizen detainees designated as unlawful enemy combatants. |
Emphasis mine
| Quote: | Applicability to U.S. citizens
The MCA applies only to "alien unlawful enemy combatants" and as such does not appear to apply to U.S. citizens. However, non-citizen U.S. residents — including green card holders — can be designated as alien unlawful enemy combatants. |
There are of course possibilities for abuse of the statute.
where non citizen residents are concerned.Perhaps we should allow infiltrators to strike with impunity.After all,what are a few thousand deaths here and there in the grand scheme of things.
[according to MM]
| Quote: | | Military commissions have historically been used to dispense battlefield justice; to try captured combatants for violations of the laws of war. They have also been used to replace or substitute for civilian courts during martial law or under the occupation of enemy territory. Historically, it has been U.S. practice for military commissions to function as closely as possible to courts martial. |
_________________
Personal freedom will never go out of style, and that's at the root of conservatism. There isn't a problem in the world that doesn't have freedom as its best start in solving it."
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MississippiMud
Captain
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Joined: Jul 04, 2005
Posts: 649
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| VastlyRight wrote: | where non citizen residents are concerned.Perhaps we should allow infiltrators to strike with impunity.After all,what are a few thousand deaths here and there in the grand scheme of things.
[according to MM][/b]
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Impunity? O hell no. As I have stated in the past I favor battlefield execution for captured non-uniformed enemy combatants. That however does not work domestically, unless we are going to declare the homeland a battlefield. And NO I am not in favor of that. We have the courts here. I prefer a speedy trial and quick executions (for the guilty) rather than detention and torture.
_________________
we have to get control of our minds back. the lives we live are illusory manifestations of the imagination of ourselves.
I refuse to tiptoe through life safely and without risk simply to arrive at death unharmed.
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JoAnnCQ
Warnings : 2
Major
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Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 1274
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VastlyRight
Captain
Joined: Nov 21, 2006
Posts: 557
Location: Vermont
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Wynne-R
Major
Joined: Jul 30, 2005
Posts: 1411
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | NEW YORK—Fifteen former interrogators and intelligence officials with more than 350 years collective field experience have declared that torture is an “unlawful, ineffective and counterproductive” way to gather intelligence, in a statement of principles released today.
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/etn/2008/alert/313/index.htm |
It’s not only wrong, it’s dumb. D’ohh!
— Wynn
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alanstancliff
Captain
Premium Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 675
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Wynne-R wrote: | | Quote: | NEW YORK—Fifteen former interrogators and intelligence officials with more than 350 years collective field experience have declared that torture is an “unlawful, ineffective and counterproductive” way to gather intelligence, in a statement of principles released today.
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/etn/2008/alert/313/index.htm |
It’s not only wrong, it’s dumb. D’ohh!
— Wynn |
Maybe those interrogators are a bunch of lefties with short attention spans and low morals.
_________________
Regards,
Alan
My Web Site, Blog, Music, Art
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JoAnnCQ
Warnings : 2
Major
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Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 1274
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | We believe:
1. Non-coercive, traditional, rapport-based interviewing approaches provide the best possibility for obtaining accurate and complete intelligence.
2. Torture and other inhumane and abusive interview techniques are unlawful, ineffective and counterproductive. We reject them unconditionally.
3. The use of torture and other inhumane and abusive treatment results in false and misleading information, loss of critical intelligence, and has caused serious damage to the reputation and standing of the United States. The use of such techniques also facilitates enemy recruitment, misdirects or wastes scarce resources, and deprives the United States of the standing to demand humane treatment of captured Americans.
4. There must be a single well-defined standard of conduct across all U.S. agencies to govern the detention and interrogation of people anywhere in U.S. custody, consistent with our values as a nation.
5. There is no conflict between adhering to our nation’s essential values, including respect for inherent human dignity, and our ability to obtain the information we need to protect the nation.
Signed by:
Frank Anderson
Frank Anderson worked for the CIA from 1968 until 1995. He served three tours of duty in the Middle East as an agency station chief, headed the Afghan Task Force (1987-1989), and was chief of the Near East Division. He now runs a consulting practice that focuses on the Middle East.
Jack Cloonan
Jack Cloonan served as a special agent with the FBI from 1977 to 2002. He began investigating Al Qaeda in the early 1990’s and served as a special agent for the Bureau's Osama bin Laden unit from 1996 to 2002.
Colonel (Ret.) Stuart A. Herrington, US Army
Stu Herrington served thirty years as an Army intelligence officer, specializing in human intelligence/counterintelligence. He has extensive interrogation experience from service in Vietnam, Panama, and Operation Desert Storm. He has traveled to Guantanamo and Iraq at the behest of the Army to evaluate detainee exploitation operations, and he recently taught a three-day seminar on humane interrogation practices to the Army’s 201st MI Battalion, Interrogation, during its activation at Ft. Sam Houston, Texas.
Pierre Joly
Pierre Joly has more than 39 years of military intelligence experience. He currently serves as the Vice President of Phoenix Consulting Group where he leads more than 350 employees involved in providing human intelligence training to members of the intelligence community and law enforcement agencies of the United States. Immediately before joining Phoenix he served as the Chief of Controlled Operations at DIA from 2005- 2006 and the Chief of Operations for the Iraq Survey Group in Baghdad from 2003-2004.
Brigadier General (Ret.) David Irvine, US Army
General Irvine enlisted in the 96th Infantry Division, United States Army Reserve, in 1962. He received a direct commission in 1967 as a strategic intelligence officer. He maintained a faculty assignment for 18 years with the Sixth U.S. Army Intelligence School, and taught prisoner of war interrogation and military law to soldiers, Marines, and airmen. He retired in 2002, and his last assignment was Deputy Commander for the 96th Regional Readiness Command. General Irvine served 4 terms as a Republican legislator in the Utah House of Representatives, has served as a congressional chief of staff, and served as a commissioner on the Utah Public Utilities Commission.
Steven M. Kleinman
Steve Kleinman is an active duty intelligence officer who has twenty-five years of operational and leadership experience in human intelligence, special survival training, and special operations. He has served as a case officer, as a strategic debriefer, and as an interrogator during Operations JUST CAUSE, DESERT STORM, and IRAQI FREEDOM. He previously served as the DoD Senior Intelligence Officer for Special Survival Training and is currently assigned as the Reserve Director of Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance at the Air Force Special Operations Command. As an independent consultant, his engagements have included serving as a senior advisor to the Intelligence Science Board's Study on Educing Information and as a member of the faculty for the U.S. Army Behavioral Science Consulting Team Course.
Dr. George Mandel
Dr. George Mandel, born in Berlin, Germany, came to the US in 1937. He was inducted into the U.S. Army in 1944, and after basic training was transferred to Camp Ritchie, MD, for training in military interrogation because of his knowledge of German. He was then transferred to P.O. Box 1142, outside of Washington, D.C. where he conducted interrogation of German scientists brought to this country as prisoners of war. After a brief stint at Fort Strong, outside of Boston, he returned to 1142 to continue his previous work in military intelligence until the end of the War in Europe. After discharge in 1946 he returned briefly to 1142, and then entered graduate school at Yale University, specializing in organic chemistry. After receiving his Ph.D. he began his career in biochemical pharmacology, at George Washington University School of Medicine, starting as Research Associate in 1949, and promotion to the ranks to Professor. He became chairman of the Department of Pharmacology in 1960, stepped down from that position in 1996 and currently is working there as Professor of Pharmacology & Physiology. His research work has been in drug metabolism, cancer chemotherapy and carcinogenesis.
Joe Navarro
For 25 years, Joe Navarro worked as an FBI special agent in the area of counterintelligence and behavioral assessment. A founding member of the National Security Division’s Behavioral Analysis Program, he is on the adjunct faculty at Saint Leo University and the University of Tampa and remains a consultant to the intelligence community. Mr. Navarro is the author of a number of books about interviewing techniques and practice including Advanced Interviewing which he co-wrote with Jack Schafer and Hunting Terrorists: A Look at the Psycopathology of Terror. He currently teaches the Advanced Terrorism Interview course at the FBI.
Torin Nelson
Torin Nelson is a veteran Human Intelligence (HUMINT) Specialist and interrogator with 16-years of experience working with military and government agencies. He has worked in major theaters of operation in Eastern Europe, the Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Mr. Nelson has worked in tactical and strategic environments, both as a soldier and civilian advisor. Primary assignments include the 66th Military Intelligence and 300th Military Intelligence Brigades. He has also worked for the US Army Intelligence Center, Southern European Task Force (SETAF), the On-Site Inspection Agency (OSIA, later DTRA), Combined Joint Task Force 170 (later CJTF-Gitmo), CFLCC (Iraq), CJTF-76 (later -82/-101) (Afghanistan), NATO (IFOR, SFOR, and ISAF), as well as numerous military to military joint training exercises. Mr. Nelson is one of the founding members at the Society for Professional Human Intelligence (SPHI). He is currently working in the Middle East as a senior interrogator and mentor.
William Quinn
William Quinn served in the United States Army from 2001 to 2006 as a human intelligence collector, interrogator, and Korean linguist. He was deployed to Iraq from February 2005 to February 2006 in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom, and was stationed at Abu Ghraib and Camp Cropper. Will is currently studying International Politics and Security Studies at Georgetown University and is a cadet in Army ROTC.
Buck Revell
Mr. Revell served a 30-year career (1964-1994) in the FBI as a Special Agent and senior executive. From 1980 until 1991, Mr. Revell served in FBI Headquarters first as Assistant Director in charge of Criminal Investigations (including terrorism); then as Associate Deputy Director he was in charge of the Investigative, Intelligence, Counter-Terrorism and International programs of the Bureau (1985-91). In September 1987, Mr. Revell was placed in charge of a joint FBI/CIA/U.S. military operation (Operation Goldenrod) which led to the first apprehension overseas of an international terrorist. Prior to joining the FBI, Mr. Revell served as an officer and aviator in the U.S. Marine Corps, leaving active duty in 1964 as a Captain. He currently serves as the President of an international business and security consulting group based in Dallas.
Ken Robinson
Ken Robinson served a twenty-year career in a variety of tactical, operational, and strategic assignments including Ranger, Special Forces, and clandestine special operations units. His experience includes service with the National Security Agency, Defense Intelligence Agency and the Central Intelligence Agency. Ken has extensive experience in CIA and Israeli interrogation methods and is a member of the U.S. Military Intelligence Hall of Fame.
Roger Ruthberg
Roger Ruthberg served as an interrogator in the U.S. Army for 22 years. He conducted interrogation and counterintelligence operations during Operations Desert Storm, Joint Endeavor, and Iraqi Freedom. He currently works as an instructor in debriefing operations on contract to the Department of Defense.
Haviland Smith
Haviland Smith is a retired CIA case officer and Station Chief who served for 26 years. He served in East and West Europe and in the Middle East. He also served for three years as Chief of the Counterterrorism Staff at the Agency, as well as a tour as Executive Assistant to the DDCI.
Lieutenant General (Ret.) Harry E. Soyster, USA
Lieutenant General Soyster served as Director, Defense Intelligence Agency during DESERT SHIELD/STORM. He also served as Deputy Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence, Department of the Army, Commanding General, U.S. Army, Commanding General, U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command and in the Joint Reconnaissance Center, Joint Chiefs of Staff. In Vietnam he was an operations officer in a field artillery battalion. Upon retirement he was VP for International Operations with Military Professional Resources Incorporated and returned to government as a Special Assistant to the SEC ARMY for WWII 60th Anniversary Commemorations completed in 2006.
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/etn/2008/alert/313/index.htm |
ok & I hear ya & I take back what I said earlier 'bout Military Intelligence.
| Quote: | what I said & was wrong about:
& the oxyMoron of the Century (last) = Military Intelligence |
I was wrong. We can learn something from Military Intelligence if we Listen. (I wasn't listening)
I hear ya.
Thanks for posting this Wynn-R. Much Respect.
Love & peace, 
JoAnn 
If Love is outlawed, only outlaws will Love
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alanstancliff
Captain
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 675
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:46 am Post subject: |
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Yes, thanks, Wynn.
You certainly are a voice of sanity around here, even if we don't always agree.
And thank you, JoAnne, for cutting and pasting that article. It is worthy of reading and considering.
A few years ago, there was an article in The Atlantic Monthly (I believe) that was about the most successful American interrogator of Japanese prisoners of war during World War II.
He constantly got all kinds of information that others could not get. He said stuff that sounds like a lot of those interrogators referred to above.
One of the brightest people I know is my neighbor, who is a captain in the Army. He's also a great guy. He voted for Bush and supported the military policy, as much as I could gather from my limited discussions about that from him.
He knows about my politics and yet obviously like me quite a bit. I try to avoid discussing the war with him because, as an officer, he has a duty to defend it in order to conform to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. But we did have some discussions before he achieved that rank, and he is a conservative (not a reactionary), a Christian, and cannot imagine that the US would fight an unjust war.
So it's good for us antiwar types on the left not to forget that others with different viewpoints aren't necessarily stupid.
_________________
Regards,
Alan
My Web Site, Blog, Music, Art
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alanstancliff
Captain
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 675
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:18 am Post subject: |
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I found a link to that article in the Monthly Review. I hope my friends Muddy and VR get a chance to read it and provide a bit of feedback on what they think.
The link is here.
Regards,
Alan
_________________
Regards,
Alan
My Web Site, Blog, Music, Art
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Wynne-R
Major
Joined: Jul 30, 2005
Posts: 1411
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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I remember something the dog breeder said when I got a Doberman puppy. I had just expressed concern that a lot of people had told me Dobermans would eventually turn mean. He said “It’s simple; You want a good dog be good to it. You want a bad dog, be bad to it.” He was right.
Then it hit me: Bush doesn’t want good intelligence. His administration is famous for being averse to opposing viewpoints. They want to hear what they want to hear. If I want your opinion, I’ll beat it into you.
It explains everything. This stupid “war” wasn’t waged based on intelligence, but fanatical ideology. Intelligence would further expose how horrible our foreign policy really is. As the emperor prances about, looking silly, all the “journalists” are praising his outfit. The last thing they want is sunshine.
Remember Curveball? That’s the sort of drivel they want, and their methods guarantee it. If Bush was interested in the truth, he wouldn’t have men like Cheney and Rove as advisors. Everything he does is antithetical to reason, he is the consummate anti-intellectual.
It all fits, I don’t know why it took me so long to think of it. Alan accused me of sanity, but you have to be crazy to figure this one out.
— Wynn
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VastlyRight
Captain
Joined: Nov 21, 2006
Posts: 557
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Moran spoke fluent Japanese, but more important, he was thoroughly familiar with Japanese culture, having spent forty years in Japan as a missionary. |
If only we had such working for us now,someone who was intimately familiar with the languages and cultures of the current crop we have today
| Quote: | Moran's whole approach—and Hans Joachim Scharff's, too......
Luftwaffe interrogator Hans Joachim Scharff, whose charm, easygoing manner, and perfect English beguiled many a captured Allied airman into revealing critical information...... |
| Quote: | | In contrast, in late 2002 the military's Southern Command had so few interrogators and interpreters that it was forced to employ inexperienced and untrained civilian contractors to perform these jobs at Guantánamo. The officer in charge of the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center at Abu Ghraib had no interrogation experience himself and no skilled interrogators or interpreters working underneath him. He, too, turned to civilian contractors. Government auditors criticized these deficiencies in early 2004 and noted that several of the firms that supplied civilian contractors had no experience in such work. Yet the shortage of military interrogators continues, and the Department of Defense continues to employ people outside the military for some of this work. "They let a bunch of out-of-control contractors, CIA freelancers, untrained military-intelligence people, et cetera get turned loose under the promise and pressure of getting quick results," Corum told me. |
The closest we may have had,was this fellow Stashiu. An Army nurse who worked at Guantánamo, and who spoke on a regular basis with detainees with psychological and/or behavioral problems.Following are excerpts of an interview from THIS
| Quote: | I asked him that very question: what are the detainees like? Stashiu said:
For many of them, think Ted Bundy. Educated, charming, and without conscience for those they consider infidels. Some are truly ill and were taken advantage of because of it. For example, one routinely asked us for an explosive suicide vest so he could assassinate Osama Bin Laden or George Bush for us, whoever he could find first (he was completely serious).
But we’ve heard that many of the detainees at GTMO were innocent, I said. Does Stashiu believe that — and does he have a basis to know one way or the other?
I didn’t see any that I believe were totally innocent, although it wasn’t my call and it really didn’t matter to their care. We got how much I could know about their history changed because I contended that if I couldn’t validate their history as given to us, my staff couldn’t give adequate treatment. It would be too easy for detainees to lie about the presence or absence of a family history. If they told us the truth about some of the circumstances relating to their capture, we could have some confidence in other information they gave. And they almost always tried to tell that part of their story. The biggest rule we had to follow in guiding staff was to never share any specific intel so that intel and therapy were as separated as possible while still providing good care. |
One stumbling block to using the Moran approach may be The Manchester Document If you’re unfamiliar with the Manchester Document, it is an official Al Qaeda training manual that was discovered by British police in Manchester, England while searching the computer of a known Al Qaeda terrorist. You can read it HERE . An article posted on wikipedia summarizes:
| Quote: | Main Mission
The overthrow of the godless regimes and their replacement with an Islamic regime.
Other missions
Gathering information about the enemy, the land, the installations, and the neighbors(sic).
Kidnapping enemy personnel, documents, secrets, and arms.
Assassinating enemy personnel as well as foreign tourists.
Freeing the brothers who are captured by the enemy.
Spreading rumors and writing statements that instigate people against the enemy.
Blasting and destroying the places of amusement, immorality, and sin; not a vital target.
Blasting and destroying the embassies and attacking vital economic centers.
Blasting and destroying bridges leading into and out of the cities
One controversial passage states that "At the beginning of the trial ... the brothers must insist on proving that torture was inflicted on them by state security before the judge. Complain of mistreatment while in prison." This passage is frequently cited by commentators to cast doubt on the claims by detainees in the "war on terror" that they were subjected to torture, or abuse. However, the same section of the manual also counsels its readers to do everything they possibly can to have a full medical examination prior to their interrogation. It explains to readers that the medical examination establishes a baseline that will enable them to prove that wounds inflicted on them during interrogation were not inflicted prior to their capture.
The handbook instructs commanders to make sure operatives, or "brothers," understand what to say if captured. "Prior to executing an operation, the commander should instruct his soldiers on what to say if they are captured," the document says. "He should explain that more than once in order to ensure that they have assimilated it. They should, in turn, explain it back to the commander." An example might have occurred in a Northern Virginia courtroom in February. Ahmed Omar Abul Ali, accused of planning to assassinate President Bush, made an appearance in U.S. District Court and promptly told the judge that he had been tortured in Saudi Arabia, including a claim that his back had been whipped. He is accused of meeting there with a senior al Qaeda leader. Days later, a U.S. attorney filed a court document saying physicians had examined Ali and "found no evidence of any physical mistreatment on the defendant's back or any other part of his body." |
| Quote: | But, as someone who is familiar with the backgrounds of many of the detainees, does Stashiu think the majority are really terrorists, or just folks who have been scooped up by accident? He said:
I believe that the majority of the guys there are true terrorists, and they follow the Manchester Document to the letter.
If you’re a Muslim extremist captured while fighting your holy war against “infidels,” avoid revealing information at all costs, don’t give your real name and claim that you were mistreated or tortured during your detention.
As Stashiu explained it, the mission was: “deny, deny, deny.” A recent article in the New York Times Magazine says of the Manchester Document:
| Quote: | | Officials at the detention facility at Naval Station Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, say they see clear evidence that detainees are well-versed in its contents. |
Stashiu agrees with this wholeheartedly. |
[ | Quote: | ......asked Stashiu what motivated the terrorists incarcerated at Guantánamo to join Al Qaeda, or whatever terrorist group they were members of. He said that the reasons varied.
That’s why you can’t really profile within the Muslim countries. They come from all backgrounds, classes, and income levels. Some had servants, some were servants, some of everything.
There was, however, a common and obvious thread: they fought against the United States due to religious zeal and hatred of Americans.
Most detainees were quite up front about this hatred, and some were also very forthright about their actions and intentions — like the detainee who said:
"I am part of Al Qaeda. I want to kill an American before I leave Cuba. I will do whatever it takes."
Stashiu met many of the men quoted in the New York Times Magazine article. One of them was quoted in the article as fully admitting at his military tribunal that he had fought against the United States. Stashiu told me he had heard the man say identical things, like:
I will make this easy for you, I fought against American troops.
The man also spoke of having built an explosive device to attack Americans. |
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Personal freedom will never go out of style, and that's at the root of conservatism. There isn't a problem in the world that doesn't have freedom as its best start in solving it."
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