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AnTheol
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Joined: Jun 26, 2007
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Location: Switzerland
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 Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:43 am Post subject: Jesus never existed. |
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If you have proof he did, feel free...
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loren777
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:55 am Post subject: |
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The Bible
Is that good enough? 
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AnTheol
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, no, it is not. It would be best to focus on third party reliable ancient records from the time the alleged Jesus character lived in, not canon-based fictional stories and mythology, but rather independent records of reputable historians.
Thank you for responding to the thread.
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enegue
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Joined: Aug 23, 2004
Posts: 3279
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome to CC Religion, AnTheol.
Do you have any support for your assertion, or are you just saying "stuff".
Cheers,
enegue
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AnTheol
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| enegue wrote: | Welcome to CC Religion, AnTheol.
Do you have any support for your assertion, or are you just saying "stuff".
Cheers,
enegue |
Thanks for the welcome. However, did you see the invitation at the top of the thread? If you have proof Jesus existed, feel free to present it. Right?
Do you have any evidence from contemporary sources that this man actually existed?
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Wynne-R
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Joined: Jul 30, 2005
Posts: 1411
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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I don’t have any proof that I exist. Actually I don’t.
Either way, a two thousand year old crime scene or a fictional character, CSI isn’t going to help.
Do you have any proof that he didn’t?
— Wynn (or is it?)
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ANTI_SCRIPTUS
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Joined: Jul 05, 2007
Posts: 522
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Wynne-R wrote: | I don’t have any proof that I exist. Actually I don’t.
Either way, a two thousand year old crime scene or a fictional character, CSI isn’t going to help.
Do you have any proof that he didn’t?
— Wynn (or is it?) |
Wynn, your nihilistic stance is getting tiresome and worn out. You have been down this path before, I have heard, and you offered nothing worthwhile to replace your confusion. If you are not sure you exist, that is unfortunate. How about pinching your nose? Does that hurt? I hope you become more certain of your existence once you drive down public roads, for the sake of both the public and yours. I have news for you, but unlike fictional and virtual characters, we are very real, including yourself. I am in full support of the poster. There is no reliable and trustworthy contemporary evidence from the time of Jesus, that the Jesus of the Bible existed at all. Aside from a few discredited forgeries(Philo interpolations) that no reputable modern independent scholar takes seriously, there is absolutly nothing to account for this character actually having lived.
_________________
Have you been saved yet?
No, no, I mean from the Bible. It's just a book, you know,... for God's sake.
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Wynne-R
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Posts: 1411
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:33 am Post subject: |
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The historicity of Jesus is by no means settled, it probably never will be. Non-historicity is certainly the minority view.
This thread is another appeal to the argument from ignorance. You can’t prove Jesus existed, so he didn’t. This argument has been discredited repeatedly in this forum, yet it keeps coming back.
— Wynn
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ANTI_SCRIPTUS
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Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Wynne-R wrote: | The historicity of Jesus is by no means settled, it probably never will be. Non-historicity is certainly the minority view.
This thread is another appeal to the argument from ignorance. You can’t prove Jesus existed, so he didn’t. This argument has been discredited repeatedly in this forum, yet it keeps coming back.
— Wynn |
Wynn, this is my slant on it, and I think this is what most reputable scholars agree on. There might have been a person, certainly more than one person actually, named Jesus, who lived aroung the time of the alleged events, but there is no correlation as to the Jesus of the Bible actually having existed. Many people were called Christ, Chrestus, or whatever. The Christ title is an ancient term that did not originate with Jesus. It goes as far back as Indian mythology.
From what I read, scholars agree that "a" Jesus might have lived in Palestine, but they shun the Jesus of Christian mythology as a serious proposition. Nobody within reputable academic circles takes the mythological Jesus seriously.
The problem is that many Christians call themselves "scholars" and then publish books on the matter, clouding the issue. These are not real scholars, but only believers who attempt to prove an already agreed upon premise. Real science looks at the evidence and comes up with a verdict on that. There is no evidence. All of it was manufactured. All of those worship places were manufactured by the Church. There is no evidence.
_________________
Have you been saved yet?
No, no, I mean from the Bible. It's just a book, you know,... for God's sake.
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Wynne-R
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:47 am Post subject: |
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A conclusion is as good as it’s premise, if the logic is valid. In the absence of decent evidence you can’t have much confidence in the premise.
When you’re talking about ancient history, the trail is pretty cold. I don’t know who your “reputable scholars” are, but they are very much in the minority.
| Quote: | Most scholars in the fields of biblical studies and history agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, was accused of sedition against the Roman Empire, and on the orders of Roman Governor Pontius Pilate was sentenced to death by crucifixion.[1] A small minority[2] argue that Jesus never existed as a historical figure, but a purely symbolic or mythical figure syncretized from various non-Abrahamic deities and heroes.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_jesus |
Bottom line, it’s your opinion, not a fact.
— Wynn
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enegue
General
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Joined: Aug 23, 2004
Posts: 3279
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| ANTI_SCRIPTUS wrote: | | Wynn, this is my slant on it, and I think this is what most reputable scholars agree on. There might have been a person, certainly more than one person actually, named Jesus, who lived aroung the time of the alleged events, but there is no correlation as to the Jesus of the Bible actually having existed. Many people were called Christ, Chrestus, or whatever. The Christ title is an ancient term that did not originate with Jesus. It goes as far back as Indian mythology. |
Yes, slant is definitely the right word for it - a lop-sided view.
Here is less affected view on the matter:
Most scholars in the fields of history and biblical studies agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew, was regarded as a teacher and healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on orders of the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate under the accusation of sedition against the Roman Empire. A small number of scholars and authors question the historical existence of Jesus, with some arguing for a completely mythological Jesus.
-- Wikipedia
Cheers,
enegue
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ANTI_SCRIPTUS
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Joined: Jul 05, 2007
Posts: 522
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Wynne-R wrote: | A conclusion is as good as it’s premise, if the logic is valid. In the absence of decent evidence you can’t have much confidence in the premise.
When you’re talking about ancient history, the trail is pretty cold. I don’t know who your “reputable scholars” are, but they are very much in the minority.
| Quote: | Most scholars in the fields of biblical studies and history agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, was accused of sedition against the Roman Empire, and on the orders of Roman Governor Pontius Pilate was sentenced to death by crucifixion.[1] A small minority[2] argue that Jesus never existed as a historical figure, but a purely symbolic or mythical figure syncretized from various non-Abrahamic deities and heroes.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_jesus |
Bottom line, it’s your opinion, not a fact.
— Wynn |
You continue to misrepresent my point and you feed the appetite for distortion that enegue will jump on like a ferocious hyena.
I already told you, "a" Jesus existed. Not the Jesus of the Bible. John the Baptist baptized countless Jesuses, that was a very common name.
There is no evidence of any kind that the Jesus of the Bible existed.
If you read carefully, Wikipedia says that scholars make a clear distinction between the Jesus of the Bible and a hystorical Jesus.
This was already posted in this forum before by another atheist, I'm sure of it.
_________________
Have you been saved yet?
No, no, I mean from the Bible. It's just a book, you know,... for God's sake.
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ANTI_SCRIPTUS
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Furthermore, most scholars in the field of biblical studies are already Christian zealots, so their work means nothing.
They start with the premise that Jesus existed, then try to find rationalizations for that assumption. Like I said, no scholar of repute takes the mythological Jesus seriously. Who cares if a Jesus existed? Means nothing. There where hundreds if not thousands of Jesuses floating around that time. Even Barabbas was actually named Jesus, so you people are totally clueless. The challenge is to prove that anonymous Jesus is somehow tied to the Bible, and this is absolutely unsubstantiated.
_________________
Have you been saved yet?
No, no, I mean from the Bible. It's just a book, you know,... for God's sake.
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LORD_SATAN
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Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Posts: 83
Location: Morocco
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| enegue wrote: | | ANTI_SCRIPTUS wrote: | | Wynn, this is my slant on it, and I think this is what most reputable scholars agree on. There might have been a person, certainly more than one person actually, named Jesus, who lived aroung the time of the alleged events, but there is no correlation as to the Jesus of the Bible actually having existed. Many people were called Christ, Chrestus, or whatever. The Christ title is an ancient term that did not originate with Jesus. It goes as far back as Indian mythology. |
Yes, slant is definitely the right word for it - a lop-sided view.
Here is less affected view on the matter:
Most scholars in the fields of history and biblical studies agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew, was regarded as a teacher and healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on orders of the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate under the accusation of sedition against the Roman Empire. A small number of scholars and authors question the historical existence of Jesus, with some arguing for a completely mythological Jesus.
-- Wikipedia
Cheers,
enegue |
Absolutely false. Your own link says this:
"Historicity
Scholars have used the historical method to develop probable reconstructions of Jesus' life. Scholars draw a distinction between Jesus as reconstructed through historical methods and Jesus as understood through a theological point of view. The main sources of information regarding Jesus' life and teachings are the four canonical Gospels of the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. A small minority of scholars dispute Jesus' existence."
Sounds like they separate themselves from the bogus Jesus of mythology. That's very clear.
There were hundreds of Galilean Jews called Jesus, if not thousands, who were regarded as healers and such garbage. Jesus is not really a name, but a title. Jehova is salvation. Yeah, right... Satan brings salvation, actually. Salvation from the lies of the Bible. Satan means adversary. We have those scammers like that alive today all over the place, especially around India.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
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enegue
General
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Joined: Aug 23, 2004
Posts: 3279
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ANTI_SCIPTUS wrote: | | Furthermore, most scholars in the field of biblical studies are already Christian zealots, so their work means nothing. |
That's right, AS. You stick to your guns. A personal opinion has got to be more weighty than independant third-party authority, hasn't it.
The fact is, there is only one Jesus who has changed the lives of countless millions over the last two thousand years. Only one Jesus whose words have continued on down the centuries, while scoffers such as yourself come and go. His words will continue unhindered until they have achieved the purpose for which they were uttered, at which time all things will be concluded.
I just caught this:Are you saying that the text I quoted didn't come from Wikipedia? How can you say what I said was false? I think you are beginning to dribble, AS.
Cheers,
enegue
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