OK, here's my bit...

Science and religion is intimately intertwined. From the time that us humans first "fell out of our trees" and started walking upright, about 5 million years ago archeologically, or 4.5 million years ago genetically, some have picked up certain clues as to the workings of the Universe.

Just like many animals teach tricks they have discovered, to others in the group, such as monkeys or birds, teaching how to use a stick to reach an object or a stone to break a hard shelled nut, so too, have humans taught each other how to do or realise the most basic things.

Some early humans that lived longer than, or were simply more perceptive than others, realised that they were able to discern patterns in the passage of time. Day followed night. The moon changed shape in a repeated pattern. Seasons changed in a repeated pattern.

Some learned through trial and error that certain plants were good for eating and some were good for certain external or internal medical conditions.

The nature of animals and humans were similar also, concerning procreation. Just like some birds or animals have spectacular plumage or patterns, or built really nice dwellings or nests, it was the humans than were able to create better dwellings, trinkets and a "different" or unique dress sense that caught the eye of a suitor and aided in procreation for that individual.

The ones in a group that were able to learn about healing arts, or had knowledge of the patterns of events dictated by the passage of time, were to become the "shamans" or "priests" of the group. These persons would teach a younger "initiate" or helper, the things that they knew, in order for that person to take over the role of the group's shaman eventually.

As humanity evolved and started communities by domesticating certain animals and cultivating certain plants around 11,000 years ago, some people in the clan/group already had well defined roles, such as chieftain, midwife, warrior, shaman etc.

With the growth of communities to villages and in some cases cities, so too did the roles played by the chieftains and shamans become more important. Chieftains evolved to kings and shamans to priests, as most people know of them today.

The knowledge of the shaman/priest was mixed with easy to remember stories which aided in oral preservation of the knowledge required by the particular societies.

These were not just stories. Priests from many diverse societies would be able to interpret each others' knowledge or stories of their "Gods" because it was "science". From the naming of "power plants", "fundamental" elements, medical conditions, human fertilisation and menstruation "periods" linked to the moon or planetary and celestial phenomena, they all shared a common system of understanding the Universe.

All the ancient stories of gods are very similar too. Many Gods or sons of Gods were "born from a virgin", or died and "were resurrected" etc., long before the time of the person known as Jesus to christians. What was being discussed, was planetary or celestial events. The knowledge was preserved in a way that allowed for those that understood what the stories actually explained..."for those with the ears to hear" and "the eyes to see"...to interpret the knowledge of how the Universe worked.

If you want to know more, read all of Lyall Watson's books in the order that he wrote them. He has compiled the best biological information that can be found on this planet, into his various books.

For more on ancient to modern day religions, start with books on ancient Indian religion, the "Vedic scriptures" (from the "Aryans" or Iranians as we know them today, and their mixture with the "animism" of the ancient indian beliefs) which is where all religions evolved from.

Then Babylonian religion, which is where the ten commandments come from, since they are word for word, ten of the twenty+ laws of the Babylonians that were written on stone pillars.

Then Egyptian, Assyrian, Greek, Roman and then other lesser mediterranean religions.

Of course, thereafter, also look at the Eastern European, Central European, Western European, Irish, Brittish and the North and South American religions.

Cool!

Though there are not actually "ten" commandments, but that is another topic!

--J.D.

Bulls*it. They are not one. In fact, science and superstition have absolutely nothing in common. They had no freaking idea how diseases spread, for example, and you waste my time with your ridiculous post... Warning! Priestly agenda at work! Rubbish!

PS Welcome to the forum. Nice avatar.

Q/Klerich,

How do you derive a starting point for scientific investigation?

How do you determine what is and what is not investigated?

ZZ

You itch.

As you scratch you wonder why you itch.

Rather than assume it is a daemon, you decide to see if anyone else has figured out why we itch. You then make observations--this is the third day without a shower wearing the Red Sox Championship shirt.

You peel the shirt off . . . step into the shower. . . .

A very good study of the method of science and how failure to follow the methods leads to messes remains Voodoo Science by Robert Park. His work does not simply target quackery--such as those pesky powerlines!--perpetual motion, and psuedoscience in general, he also demonstrates where scientists fail when they fail to follow these methods.

However, another text, A. K. Dewdney's Yes, We Have No Neutrons gives a great description of science being done badly. His discussion on the "N-waves" and "cold fusion" are fantastic lessons. In fact, I find his discussion of "cold fusion" one of the best. He demonstrates why, right from the start, scientists who understood fusion notice there were major problems with the claims--where were the neutrons?

--J.D.

@Klerich: "Bulls*it. They are not one."

All I can answer with, in response to that elegant comment, is this from en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton:

"I have studied these things — you have not.
Reported as Newton's response, whenever Edmond Halley would say anything disrespectful of religion, by Sir David Brewster in The Life of Sir Isaac Newton (1831). This has often been quoted in recent years as having been a statement specifically defending Astrology. Newton wrote extensively on the importance of Prophecy, and studied Alchemy, but there is little evidence that he took favourable notice of Astrology. Brewster attributes the anecdote to the astronomer Nevil Maskelyne who passed it on to Oxford professor Stephen Peter Rigaud."

@Klerich again: "In fact, science and superstition have absolutely nothing in common."

Read the words I wrote carefully. I don't think that there is any superstition in the deduction that certain plants help in a medicinal fashion. Yes, you may argue that very recent research proves that a placebo works as well as many of the known medicines today. Note that "many" does not mean "all"

Nor is there any superstition in the motions of celestial bodies. Note that I speak of astronomy, the branch of physics that studies celestial bodies and the Universe as a whole, not astrology, a pseudoscience claiming divination by the positions of the planets and sun and moon. Yes, the Babylonians did create astrology as we know it today. Yet, I nowhere imply that the stories about the "Gods" are explaining astrological events. If you are unaware of the fertility or menstruation periods linked to the moon, and it's position, regarding woman, since a woman can only become pregnant when she ovulates, then I suggest you read a little more on the subject or even investigate the Roman Catholic church's "rhythm" method. ie. Natural family planning in which ovulation is assumed to occur 14 days before the onset of a period (the fertile period would be assumed to extend from day 10 through day 18 of her cycle)

@Klerich, once again: "They had no freaking idea how diseases spread, for example"

You are correct, and once again, I nowhere imply that they did. Although, if you take the time, you will enlighten yourself with the fact that the egyptians were practicing brain surgery with a remarkable degree of success, a few thousand years ago. Apart from the fact that they also created batteries at that time. If you have any knowledge of electronics at all, you must surely be aware (by reading the instructions on how to build it, in the Bible) of the fact that the "Ark" of Moses was a rather powerful condenser, or as we call them nowadays, capacitor. The biblical events concerning the maintenance thereof are self explanatory. Do a "Google" on "ark of moses was a capacitor".

@Klerich, yet again: "and you waste my time with your ridiculous post..."

Well, my friend, here I smile sweetly and say "If that's what my post does, please refrain from ever reading any books concerning history, science or religions, as you will truly be wasting your time..."

@Klerich, yet again: "Warning! Priestly agenda at work!"

Sorry to disappoint, but I am merely the regurgitator of really "standard" knowledge, available to anyone with a library card, or access to Google...

@Klerich, yet again: "Rubbish!"

...I love free speech. The eloquence of the informed...

@Klerich, yet again: "PS Welcome to the forum. Nice avatar."

Hi there, nice to be here. Thank you.

Hi DoctorX,

Thanx!

You have me curious now. How many were there for the Jewish people?

Lightscribe wrote:
Priests from many diverse societies would be able to interpret each others' knowledge or stories of their "Gods" because it was "science".

Klerich wrote:
False. Science is based on the scientific method, not on "interpretation" of priestly stories.

@Klerich: Read a few more books. For immediate relief look at egyptian, greek and roman "Gods".

@Klerich, again: "PS And you don't need to plagiarize my style of posting topics, thank you very much."

What?! Have you become delusional?! I have only my own "style" of posting. Explain your statement...
Adjective: Plagiarized
Copied and passed off as your own
Verb: Plagiarize
Take without referencing from someone else's writing or speech; of intellectual property

@DoctorX: "Apparently you missed the fact that they had remarkably bad success. Trephination that may release a headache inducing epidural or subdural is one thing. That is not, per se, "brain surgery." No records of successful tumor removal. No records of successful aneurysm treatment. Et cetera."

You have a point.

@DoctorX: "If you had any knowledge of electronics or, more relevantly, the texts, you would realize how utterly ridiculous that statement is.

Oh, but do enlighten us on how it is a "capacitor." Since the Mosaic stories are mythic--there was no Sojourn, Exodus, nor Conquest--you are arguing about the number of twists on a unicorn's horn--when the text describes a dolphin"

Read the text in the Bible, on the instructions given. That the Mosaic stories are a myth, is simply the opinion of some, like yourself, and thus no more valid than my statement.

@DoctorX: "You need a more reliable source of information."

Considering that there is a vast amount of sources available through Google, on the subject, I don't think so.

@DoctorX: "You certainly need to drop the condescension when you demonstrate this embarrassing level of ignorance of subjects upon which you presume to pontificate."

I do not profess, as you do, to know everything. I refer those that argue the facts or fiction of the matter to sources of further information. If they do not want to refer to the available material, so be it.

@DoctorX: "Indeed, he might learn you have posted pseudoscience and, to use the technical term: "crap.""

That is your opinion and you're welcome to it. You, and the views you hold, are in my opinion, also full of that same "technical term".

How to use the Quote Function:

Pretend "{" are "["

{quote="Schmuck"}BLAHRGGH!{/quote}

{quote}I am ALL that is MAN!{/quote}