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Lieutenant
Joined: Nov 03, 2007
Posts: 207
Location: South_Africa
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 Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: The Family Feud... |
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What concerns me about the stories in the "Bible", is the story of Abraham and the "lineage" of the characters that follow, creating hatred that still reverberates around the world today.
He has a son with his wife's Egyptian slave girl, because the wife can not concieve. This is Ishmael (considered the forebear of 12 Arabian tribes), from who's lineage Islam is supposed to originate.
Abraham's wife later concieves. This is Isaac, from who's lineage the Hebrews are supposed to originate.
The story tells us that Ismael is then, with his mother, the slave girl, cast out in to the desert, to perish. They don't however, and the above mentioned tribes, are through time, created from the descendants of Ismael.
So, this is the first split and the start of the trouble...Since Ismael is claimed to be the first born, with the associated birthrights that should have followed.
Isaac has two sons. Esau, the first born. Jacob, the second.
Jacob, it is written, buys the birthright form Esau for a bowl of lentil soup. (Hard to believe, but then, who knows...) He also cons his father, with the help of his mother, to pass the birthright onto him.
Esau is furious about this and wants to kill Jacob. Jacob and his mother run away to her birthplace. Haran, I think.
This is the second split, and the continuation of the trouble...
Esau leaves and the Edomites (Palistineans of today) are his descendants.
The Romans installed Herod, a descendant of Esau, as King. Jesus' grandfather, Hillel, agreed to this, some writers claim.
So, we have here the warring sides of today's Middle East conflict.
Who is right? Did these people even exist?
_________________
"The greatest thing you could ever learn, is just to love...and be loved in return."
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DoctorX
Warnings : 1
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Joined: Oct 16, 2007
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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They did not.
The definitive work is--originally published in 1973--is: Thompson TL. The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives: The Quest for the Historical Abraham. Harrisburg: Trinity Press International, 2002.
As Thompson notes:
| Quote: | | On the basis of the extensive archaeological study of Palestine, we can now say with some confidence that only during the Iron Age [1200-540 BCE--Ed.] are all the cities of Palestine that are mentioned in the patriarchal narratives and which can be located with some certainty known and occupied. The geographical picture we get from the Genesis stories is that of Iron Age Palestine. |
That, of course, is far too late for the Patriarchs. Thompson's work, along with Van Seters' below, are standards. Even scholars who do not "like" a "minimalist" position--"if you cannot show independent data for an event in text you have to question it"--do not argue for historical Patriarchs. They are anachronisms to justify a mythic past. They also contain wonderful stories.
I would also recommend:
Laughlin JCH. Archaeology and the Bible. London: Routledge, 2000.
and:
Finkelstein I, Silberman NA. The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts. New York: Free Press, 2001.
From Laughlin:
| Quote: | Particularly, they [Thompson, Van Seters--Ed.] have radically re-dated the traditions to the post-exilic period and seriously question the historicity of the patriarchal stories.
. . . the Bible itself does not give the kind of chronological precision necessary to formulate clear, exact dates by modern historians. There is little in the biblical stories that can be related to know historical or political events of antiquity. . . .
Even when the Bible does seem to give a useful chronological reference, problems exist. [Discusses dating of Solomon to 10th Century BCE which, it notes is, itself, very problematic.--Ed.] . . . this would place the "Exodus" and "Conquest" sometime during the fifteenth century BC. Such a date cannot be reconciled with the archaeological data known from the time. On the other hand, the biblical writers seem clearly to place the time of the Patriarchs long before that of Moses and the Exodus. Furthermore if these traditions are as late as Thompson, Van Seters and others have suggested, it is a major curious fact that not one personal name in Genesis is compounded with the name of the Israelite God, YHWH. . . . But there are several compounded with "El," the chief god of the Canaanites, such as "Ismael," and even "Israel," . . . |
I am not aware that Thompson dates the J and E authors [Two major author types of the Pentateuch stories which include the Patriarchs--Ed.] as post-exilic. He does recognize pre-exilic traditions, but he may very well argue for post exilic compilation and reinterpretation. Van Seters apparently feels that the Pentateuch develops as a process of a "DJP sequence," (Gnuse) where "D" is the Deuteronomistic Historian dated traditionally at just before and after the beginning of the exile, "J" is the YHWHistic author, dated traditionally as pre-exilic, and "P" who is the "Priestly" author who has been dated in both periods.
I am not sure that an entirely post-exilic explanation for J and E can be sustained; in fact I am fairly certain that it cannot, if that is actually Thompson's argument. Both are going to be stuck with a source for these traditions and clear reworking of them by D and P. As Laughlin notes, if these were post-exilic traditions, one would expect YHWH to dominate throughout with "YHWH" theophorics everywhere rather than theophorics such as "Jerusalem" and, well, "Israel!"
However, be that as it may, what is not a subject of debate is that even the pre-exilic dating of the traditions is far too late for the Patriarchs. It is a question of "too late" and "much too late." See Friedman for a good review of the dating of the sources, particularly the more accepted dating and his argument for an earlier date for P.
--J.D.
Additional References:
de Vaux R. The Early History of Israel. Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1978.
Friedman RE. Who Wrote the Bible?. 2nd Ed. San Francisco: Harper Collins, 1997.
Friedman RE. The Bible with Sources Revealed. San Francisco: Harper Collins, 2003.
Gnuse RK, "Redefining the Elohist," Journal of Biblical Literature 119 (2000): 201-220.
McCarter PK. "The Patriarchal Age--Abraham, Isaac and Jacob," in: Ancient Israel: A Short History from Abraham to the Roman Destruction of the Temple, Shanks H ed. Englewood Cliffs: Prentice-Hall, 1988.
Van Seters J. Abraham in History and Tradition. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1975.
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Lieutenant
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Very interesting!
Thanks for the info. 
Makes one wonder how these cultures got so entangled with each other that they can't find a peaceful solution.
Writers like Ahmed Osman are trying to "bridge the hateful divide" between the different parties in the Middle East, ie."by using recent archaeological discoveries and historical documents, contends that Akhenaten and Moses were one and the same person."
http://www.amazon.ca/Moses-Akhenaten-Ahmed-Osman/dp/1591430046
What can be made from such info? I have read his books and they seem plausible.
Considering the hate between the Israelis and Palestinians/Arabs, from stories that have, as you put it, no foundation, it seems it won't help one bit...
_________________
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esacnitsuj
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Joined: Mar 06, 2003
Posts: 1859
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Greetings Lightscribe,
First off I want to humbly appologize that I thought you were a woman.
I guess that happened because of the avatar.
I save a lot of DoctorX's links + a couple of yours in my favorites.
I created a folder just for those links & others.
I have read over your A-Men, X-Men & O-Men and I really like what
you said about the Masons & Free Masons as my brothers, dad, etc,
are Free Masons.
I just didn't know how to reply because I probably had assumed that
you were still upset with me. I know I can get a tad irate, but do not
hold a grudge for very long...
Oh & BTW...I love your quote in your signature. Love & Give Love in Return (short term).
That is exactly what I'm like!
If you go through some of my posts, you will see that in me, although
I love to put enegue in his place! 
But still love him in MY own way. ZZ is a tad different in his "Fundamental" beliefs.
I knew him when we both volunteered as 1st Responders, after I joined
in 2003. We asked Paul to resign that position for us, because it can give
one a huge headache!
I never knew what happened to him. I thought he had just left!
I decided to come to the Religion Forum & who do I see here?
ZippyZingo! Coincidence? I dunno...
Anyhoo...Peace, Repect & Love 
_________________
Warm Regards,
David (esacnitsuj)
EULAGree With Security
| Quote: | "A Weak Mind Can Be Easily Controlled!"
"Ni Bastori Carborundum" ©1963 SQIV |
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esacnitsuj
Colonel
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esacnitsuj
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DoctorX
Warnings : 1
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Joined: Oct 16, 2007
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Lightscribe wrote: | | Makes one wonder how these cultures got so entangled with each other that they can't find a peaceful solution. |
"It all about the money, boys!!"
--Big Dan Teague, O Brother, Where Art Thou?
That is essentially it. It is all about things like land, and money, and water, upon which religion is applied to justify the hatred. Indeed, wandering through my blatherings on a mythic history in the HB, where it is basically clear that the "Israelis" where always "there" with everyone else, and "Canaanite" is a bit of a misnomer, the question should arise [Why does he not get a life.--Ed.] as to why stories of genocide and racism be invented.
Simple answer: "the empires who step on us do these things."
Run ahead a few thousand years and welcome to the mess. Religious justification for anything represents a failure in critical thinking; the participants in these conflicts are not thinking critically. Many of them may simply not care. "It all about the money!" Religion and racism is a great way for old men to get young man to kill a lot of people including themselves.
| Quote: | | Writers like Ahmed Osman are trying to "bridge the hateful divide" between the different parties in the Middle East, ie."by using recent archaeological discoveries and historical documents, contends that Akhenaten and Moses were one and the same person." |
Uh . . . wow. I do not see how either support such a contention.
| Quote: | | Considering the hate between the Israelis and Palestinians/Arabs, from stories that have, as you put it, no foundation, it seems it won't help one bit... |
Because, frankly, they are not interested in it. Islamic studies, to begin, are in about 1681, Seville, Spain!
--J.D.
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esacnitsuj
Colonel
Joined: Mar 06, 2003
Posts: 1859
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:13 am Post subject: |
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Hi DocX & Lightscribe,
| Quote: | "It all about the money, boys!!"
--Big Dan Teague, O Brother, Where Art Thou? |
You are so right on the "money" regarding your entire post!
Plus I love "Oh Brother Where Art Thou" I have it on DVD, so I can
either watch it in the living room or bedroom, where my PC is.
My Bedroom is so huge, I use my desk as a divider between my bed &
closet. Gives a lot of airflow, plus I can just walk behind when I
want something out of the closet (no pun intended ), and I have
full access to the plug & Play devices, other wiring, etc. connected to
my PC!
| Quote: | | Simple answer: "the empires who step on us do these things." |
Again, right on the $$$ DocX.
Thanks for your concern regarding my illness. I have gone through many
different trial treatments (Tx), but the side effects were worst than my
illness. One of the drugs is what caused the peripheral neuropathy in
my feet, legs & hands.
I've lost a lot of feeling in my hands partly because of drug abuse
& neuropathy, that's why it's a bit harder for me to type without
making typos. I remember in 1997, specialists put me on
a drug called Neurontin®, even though it hadn't been fully tested for
patients with neuropathic pain, etc. It's an anti-seizure drug. It gave
me horrible edema in the lower extremities and probably due to other
trial Rx I was taking as well 
DocX, do you remember the post from the past that E brought up?
Then throws quotes from Revelation at me. He thought it was a "good"
thing, but after he "data mined", which IS against the AUP & posted it!!!
He didn't need to do that, and it put me in a tad of a depressed state,
so I logged off for a day or two because I was upset regarding that!!!
I don't know how he gets away with it. Probably donates a lot of $$$,
so they look the other way? I just don't know. How could he be a
Teacher of Mathematics, I think he said. If he is, he probably fills the
kid's head full of the BS he spews out of his "one track mind"
Anyhoo, enough about him, that's another topic. It was nice to read
your guy's posts.
Makes one think  Also, people from the USA
are watching thier Constitutional Bill of Rights "burning" before thier
very eyes, but don't see it. All because of "Homeland Security",
"Patriot Act", etc.
Thank Goodness I reside in Canada. I'm 8th
generation here & love my Country with a passion!!! I just put that I
was from Atlantis as a joke, and changed it to Atlantis a short time ago.
Anyhoo...Respect, Peace & Love guys.
I'm correcting my typos all over the place! So I gotta log off for a while.
Take Care  & have a GR8 night 
_________________
Warm Regards,
David (esacnitsuj)
EULAGree With Security
| Quote: | "A Weak Mind Can Be Easily Controlled!"
"Ni Bastori Carborundum" ©1963 SQIV |
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Lieutenant
Joined: Nov 03, 2007
Posts: 207
Location: South_Africa
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:16 am Post subject: |
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DoctorX wrote:
| Quote: | Simple answer: "the empires who step on us do these things."
Run ahead a few thousand years and welcome to the mess. Religious justification for anything represents a failure in critical thinking; the participants in these conflicts are not thinking critically. Many of them may simply not care. "It all about the money!" Religion and racism is a great way for old men to get young man to kill a lot of people including themselves. |
How true!...
The House of the Sun for Aztecs, Elysian Fields for Greeks, Fame for pagan Anglo-Saxons, Freed from the bindings of Karma for Hindus, Valhalla for the Vikings, Heaven for Christians, Heaven plus 72 (note the sacred number) virgins for Muslims...
_________________
"The greatest thing you could ever learn, is just to love...and be loved in return."
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esacnitsuj
Colonel
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DoctorX
Warnings : 1
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Joined: Oct 16, 2007
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| esacnitsuj wrote: | | Plus I love "Oh Brother Where Art Thou" I have it on DVD, so I can either watch it in the living room or bedroom, where my PC is. |
The choice? She's a clear 'un. Pappy Eugenue? Slave uh duh in'rests! Homer X? Soivent of duh Li'l Man!
| Quote: | I remember in 1997, specialists put me on a drug called Neurontin®, even though it hadn't been fully tested for
patients with neuropathic pain, etc. It's an anti-seizure drug. |
It mimics the inhibitory neurotransmitter. That is a shame since it often helps those with peripheral neuropathy.
| Quote: | | DocX, do you remember the post from the past that E brought up? |
"Back to the flowah mill, Pappy E!" Duh in'rests take care o' demselves!
| Quote: | | Then throws quotes from Revelation at me. He thought it was a "good" thing, but after he "data mined", which IS against the AUP & posted it!!! |
Eh? Look, people grow up having been taught a certain foundation. It is very, very difficult to give up that foundation. People often go through great lengths--to the point of apologizing for horrific things and glaring inconsistencies--rather than give up that foundation. In another topic, rather than deal with passages from the HB he finds offensive, he tried to claim that I either made them up or "my heart" was "dark." This is an trite apologist's tactic: you took it out of context/ you just do not understand. This seems offensive, but it is a common response to challenging ideas. I am not writing you need to accept that; just understand the source of it.
| Quote: | | Also, people from the USA are watching thier Constitutional Bill of Rights "burning" before thier very eyes, but don't see it. |
Have not noticed any rights removed.
| Quote: | | All because of "Homeland Security", "Patriot Act", etc. |
Not really. All Constitutional. Actually, rather mild compared to reaction in previous wars, such as internment camps, suspending habeaus corpus, the Alien Sedition Act, and Woodstock. . . .
The fact you can post this on a forum hosted out of wonderful Ashland, Oregon, belies the doom and gloom.
| Quote: | | Thank Goodness I reside in Canada. |
What state is that in? Montana? Or is it one of the Dakotas? Why we have two, I will never know.
| Quote: | | I just put that I was from Atlantis as a joke, and changed it to Atlantis a short time ago. |
Sadly, I have encountered a number who think that was a real place. One cites Plato as if he is an authority regarding anything. These people just do not know their classics.
--J. "The LAW? The Law is a Human Institution!" D.
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esacnitsuj
Colonel
Joined: Mar 06, 2003
Posts: 1859
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Greetings Guys 
| Quote: | | Pappy Eugenue? Slave uh duh in'rests! Homer X? Soivent of duh Li'l Man! |
So right on there
| Quote: | | It mimics the inhibitory neurotransmitter. That is a shame since it often helps those with peripheral neuropathy. |
I know. I know of people who take it & does help with thier neuropathy,
I guess the Rx didn't agree with me. Even when I was taking it alone,
without other Rx, din't agree with me @ all  Ah well, I can at least I can
still get up & around, although outside I have to use a cane...Hmmm,
Perhaps Pappy E & slave drive could use a good caning. Ben Dover & me
Phil DaCrackin'
| Quote: | | Pappy E!" Duh in'rests take care o' demselves! |
Yeah, yer right on da $$$ yet again!
| Quote: | | I am not writing you need to accept that; just understand the source of it. |
Oh, I do fully understand. Why ya think I luv bug 'er E-eew? Just still does same like broke rec...strange idiosyncrasies dontcha think?
| Quote: | | Have not noticed any rights removed. |
True, I guess too many conspiracy theories eh?
| Quote: | | Not really. All Constitutional. Actually, rather mild compared to reaction in previous wars, such as internment camps, suspending habeaus corpus, the Alien Sedition Act, and Woodstock. . . . |
Yes I do remember past Hx, and horrid it was!
| Quote: | | What state is that in? Montana? Or is it one of the Dakotas? Why we have two, I will never know. |
You funny & witty. What I luv 'bout U
| Quote: | | Sadly, I have encountered a number who think that was a real place. One cites Plato as if he is an authority regarding anything. These people just do not know their classics. |
Uh Huh...right on. Believe me, I know of people who think the same as well, amongst other "beliefs"...So sad, but it's the 'ol "idiosyncrasy" thing
yet again
Actually, when I resided in Toronto, I met David Susuki once & we got to
talkin' 'bout conspiracy theories, etc. He told me that thier "idios" were to
put it bluntly...Sad...is Tics???
Ahh well it's now 6:14 AM here. I logged off a while ago, listened to some GR8 dance toons with the full screen
graphics & nodded off for a couple hours, then wake up for a while cause of e-mail notices.
Gotta turn that volume down...So many Eros, way too much Time
Peace guys. Gotta nod off a couple more hours. La douleur! Had to take
one of my MS-Contin 100mg, so gettin' sleepy again.
Later Guys
_________________
Warm Regards,
David (esacnitsuj)
EULAGree With Security
| Quote: | "A Weak Mind Can Be Easily Controlled!"
"Ni Bastori Carborundum" ©1963 SQIV |
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