Hi Felix,

I'm curious about something. Are you the kind of "militant moderate" who thinks criticism or opposition to the war or US foreign policy is treason? Morally suspect? And what the hell do you mean by "militant moderate." It kind of sounds like an oxymoron to me, a bit like "alone together," "jumbo shrimp," or "benign neglect."



I spent a large part of the Vietnam war working with marines and naval personnel. Most of them were not too thrilled about the war. Down in San Diego, around 1969 and 1970, there were several very peaceful demonstrations against the war, around 25,000 people. These demonstrations were led by a contingent of active-duty marines and another of active-duty sailors. There were around 500 of them.

Then there was a group, Vietnam Veterans Against The War. They still exist. You should check out their website. Here's how they quote Smedley Butler, a 2-time Medal of Honor winner and former Marine Corps Commandant:

You think Smedley is morally stained?



Today, May 15, some Iraqi war veterans, organized by Iraqi Veterans Against The War, are testifying in front of congress in an event they are calling "Winter Soldiers On The Hill." If you click on that link, you can hear the testimony and read about this. You think these guys are traitors or sissies?

Before answering that last one, you might want to check out the impressive biographies of those who today are testifying against this war

How about this group of West Point graduates? Do you question their loyalty and honor?

Or can you picture these antiwar military service academy graduates spitting in the faces of returning veterans?

And these family members of the veterans, the husbands, wives, lovers, children, parents of our military in Iraq, do you think they are betraying the troops?

Don't worry about being sued. Last time I looked, making silly and inane statements is not a tort.

_________________
Regards,

Alan
My Web Site, Blog, Music, Art

Sorry Alan but If if many thousands of Americans and their allies had not died for the masses in WW2, I'd be calling you Herr Standcliff assuming our parents survived to bring us both into this world.

Not sure what antiwar people you reference, but they have no right to quote Smedley Butler. He was part of the greatest generation. The folks that truly saw the threat and sacrificed all to ensure the free world persisted. You would think the people you reference would have declared him insane for serving the military with such devotion an heroism as many tours of duty that he served.

He has the right to decry the military industrial complex for he saw it in action many times.

Perhaps a better context to understand his post-war braggadocio from a speech that is a little more expanded than your carefully selected lines. This was also prior to WW2:

Well Felix,

Here's how I interpreted your post:

You seemed to be saying that during the Vietnam war (were you around then?), antiwar protesters shamefully harassed returning veterans, and now those same antiwar activists want to cover that up. They claim to be supporting the troops, but how can they be supporting the troops when they are opposing the war. Examples of their obnoxious behavior is spitting in the face of returning GI's and calling them baby killers.

So, did I get it? Was that what you meant to say? Because that's the assumption I made about your post, and that was the assumption I am basing my answer upon. So if I am wrong, please explain.

It's true that you did not say anything about treason. Apparently, I read something into your post you did not intend to say, and I acknowledge I was wrong to assume that.




I attempted to show that the antiwar movement was not anti GI, and as a matter of fact, many GIs participated in it. There is a large and honorable history of GIs in the San Diego area, where you live, who participated in and organized against the war. Did you know that? As it happens, I lived in San Diego during part of that time, and I do remember.

A fellow who was around at that time, Chris Clarke, wrote an op-ed piece for Counterpunch, and he sums up what was my experience during the war. I'll put some of it at the end of this posting, because he really sums up what I remember about this baby-killer, spit-in-the-face crap.



What I do remember are things like the antiwar GI coffee houses. I remember performing my music for GI's in them. I also remember participating in a concert at El Toro Marine Corps event. I remember crying when GI's who were my friends, many of whom opposed the war but did their duty, were killed in that terrible conflict. I remember grieving when one GI I knew stepped on a mine and lost something no man wants to lose. I remember a GI who picked up a piece of booby trapped fruit in a store in Saigon and was blown to bits. All the Vietnamese knew it was there, but the American didn't. I remember guys who lost a foot after stepping on a panji stick. I remember guys being afraid of a little green snake called the "three step snake" because if you got bit, that's how many more steps you would take before you died. I even knew socialists who were drafted, went to Vietnam, and died there.

What I don't personally remember are any antiwar activists spitting at GIs and calling them baby killers, although I recall the accusation was frequently made. When and if that happened, it was very isolated and did not represent the views of those millions of Americans of all walks of life who participated in what was the largest, most broadly based antiwar movement in history, a movement that occurred during a shooting war.

What we were for was the immediate withdrawal of the troops from Vietnam. Other than that, we did not have a lot in common because this was a very broad-based movement that included many political tendencies from far left to very moderate, some who were pacifists and some who were not, religious groups, civic groups, and even a group called something like "Jocks Against The War." Believe it or not, we even had some Republicans, and there was an off-duty policeman who opposed the war openly and participated in the parade monitor committee to help us obtain police permits and organize safety and assistance for people who might faint, children who might get lost, etc.



In the early days of the antiwar movement in San Diego, there were 2 guys that attended one of our mass meetings, and they wanted to have some big demonstration against the military. Everybody else there was against it. Later on, it turned out they were infiltrators from one of the extreme right-wing groups, who often fed faulty information to the police about our activities. San Diego, as you may know, also has a long history of right-wing terrorist groups carrying on fire bombings and shootings and intimidation. They also specialized in crude and transparent attempts to infiltrate our antiwar groups and get us to do stupid things, and even illegal things.

These particular guys especially wanted big banners in a demonstration we were planning that would denounce the GIs as being "baby killers." We who opposed that argued that the GIs were not responsible for the war, many were against it, and many more could be won over to oppose it. We needed to treat them with respect. After all, the GIs were a cross section of America, except heavily weighted towards working class and minority.

I remember one activist had acid thrown in her face. Her husband's car had acid poured all over its interior. One activist had a pipe bomb placed in the kitchen

One of these terrorist groups called itself the "Secret Army Organization," but they had nothing to do with the Army. They did have plenty to do with the Nixon Whitehouse Plumbers and C Arnholt Smith, a crooked banker that owned a large part of San Diego. You can read about some of its terrorist activities, including attempts at mass murder, by clicking on this site, hosted at the University of California in San Diego.

Anyhow, here's part of Chris Clarke's essay, which can be read in full by clicking here

One more thing Felix,

I really like that Bertrand Russell quote, and I have always admired his writing.

Did you know that he was responsible for the International War Crimes Tribunal? Here is what Wikipedia said about its origin:

Alan: You remind me of an automobile with a supercharged engine but which lacks a steering wheel. Your discussion is all over the place and lacks focus. The use of one person,the unknown Chris Clarke, as proof of your thesis is rather a joke and a pitiful display not at all befitting the intelligent man I thought you were. I served honorably in the Navy at Naval Air Station Anacostia (D.C.) and aboard the attack carrier USS Intrepid (CVA-11). I used my GI Bill at Texas where I witnessed the antics of SDS--Students for a Democratic (Communist!) Society. And thence off to UC Berkeley where I watched the loonies of the left causing grief, insult, and harm to whomever they could, whenever they could, wherever they could, and as much as they could. So, tell this Chris Clarke person to kiss my royal ... As to Bertrand Russell, I am well aware of his position on numerous of matters. And the quote is still spot on. Being anti-Israel is one of the left's favorite hobbies; yet another group irritated by those pesky Jews! I am generally pro-Israel but don't happen to be a Zionist (one Jew sending a second Jew to Israel with the money of yet a third). Always remember Abba Eban's view of the Palestinians: "They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." In a different thread I wrote of having a Palestinian Moslem girlfriend in Jerusalem who was rabidly pro-PLO. If Conrad Arnholt Smith, Richard Nixon, and the "plumbers" didn't require a few words, I would love to tell you all about "Militant Moderation." So, please try authoring a post that's shorter than an unfurled roll of paper towels. I do, however, give you kudos for always coloring within the lines.

From the wikipedia

On Smedly Butler

P.J. O'Rourke: Give War a Chance.

Shh.. no fair hinting....

Hi HandyMan,

First it's the tongue twisters on the religionist forums & now this? & I thought it was Felix who was gonna quiz me? (& with me studying the Capitals of all the States too? - well at least that wasn't a waste of time)

hhhmmm ... well this changes everything.

Well I think You should give Yourself a Hand, or a round of applause, or even a pat on the back (if You like that sort of thing)

I must admit it was a nice touch using 1 of my favorite modi operandi (or modus operandus?) Y'know the 1 where you take a question & throw it back to the person asking the question? I do like that one.

I'm listening too. I like to explore & entertain possibilities.

bye.

luv/peace/piece/listening,
johand

(& thanks for the hint hint Felix)