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U.S. Supreme Court Preserves 'God' in Pledge

 
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AplusWebMaster

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:52 pm    Post subject: U.S. Supreme Court Preserves 'God' in Pledge
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FYI...

- http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&u=/ap/20040614/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_pledge_of_allegiance_7
40 minutes ago
"The Supreme Court at least temporarily preserved the phrase "one nation, under God," in the Pledge of Allegiance, ruling Monday that a California atheist could not challenge the patriotic oath while sidestepping the broader question of separation of church and state. The decision leaves untouched the practice in which millions of schoolchildren around the country begin the day by reciting the pledge.
The court said the atheist could not sue to ban the pledge from his daughter's school and others because he did not have legal authority to speak for her. The father, Michael Newdow, is in a protracted custody fight with the girl's mother. He does not have sufficient custody of the child to qualify as her legal representative, eight members of the court said. Justice Antonin Scalia did not participate in the case...Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist agreed with the outcome of the case, but still wrote separately to say that the Pledge as recited by schoolchildren does not violate the Constitution. Justices Sandra Day O'Connor and Clarence Thomas agreed with him. The high court's lengthy opinion overturns a ruling two years ago that the teacher-led pledge was unconstitutional in public schools..."


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:49 pm    Post subject:
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=128&e=1&u=/ucwb/20040616/cm_ucwb/theplayground

"...You're attempting to take the Pledge of Allegiance away from all the students at your daughter's school, and all students everywhere. And it says here that your wife -- I mean, the mother of your child -- is in favor of her little girl reciting the full pledge, and of course that California law gives her, not the absent-from-the-house father, standing in a court trial. Are you trying to get that law changed too? And while you're at it, Newdow, you intend to do something about the Hippocratic oath?"

"What about the Hippocratic oath?"

"The provision in it that says you mustn't play God."

"Who says I was trying to play God?"

"I say it. You impregnate a woman who gives birth to the child, you refuse to marry her or live with her, you protest the policies of the school the girl goes to, and you want to impose your values on the school. So that all the little boys in that school will grow up like you, a doctor who violates his Hippocratic oath, and refuses to live up to the responsibilities of a father? I call that playing God."


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:46 am    Post subject:
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Nice to meet you AplusWebMaster...and thanks for the links! It would seem that Mr. Newdow has brought a little more attention to himself, then he bargained for...he was so busy pointing that finger... Wink

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:54 pm    Post subject:
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Nice quote from Bill Buckley, but shouldn't you also have quoted Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Falwell, Ann Coulter, Oral Roberts, Newt Gingritch, Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart, and Tammy-Faye Baker?
It is also a good example of yellow (read "trash") journalism. It is presented as a conversation with Mr. Newdow, whereas, in reality, it is a work of fiction, and clumsy at that. It's intent is to impugn Mr. Newdow's character by refering to another percieved fault in said character, That of "refusing" to marry or live with, the mother. I suspect, in the best tradition of yellow journalism, that this conclusion was reached with no reference to whatever the realities of the situation might be.

Quote:
of course that California law gives her, not the absent-from-the-house father, standing in a court trial.
Actually, Buckley and Aplus, more yellow journalism. The California court decided in favor of the father. Also, Buckley is more than a little hypocritical.........Buckley on the 1999 conservative Hillsdale College sex scandal, arguing that school officials were smart in the attempted coverup, "Such questions excite the tabloid appetites. Giving them free expression can bring on moral hangovers." Yet he feels it's perfectly acceptable to conjecture and pontificate in public
on another's alleged moral shortcomings.

In it's desire to not have to deal with the issue the Supreme Court, in fact, abdicated it's responibility, and created bad law (concerning the rights of non-custodial parents to sue on behalf of their children), when it chose to dismiss the case on a technicality. See... http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usnw/20040614/pl_usnw/u_s__supreme_court_wrongly_decides_fathers_have_no_rights__says_attorney158_xml

Justice Sandra Day O'Connor observes that the expression "under God" is "... the inevitable consequence of the nation's religious founding."
Anyone who has studied the Constitution knows this is not true. Everyone who has merely read the Constitution knows that it is pointedly secular. It is secular for a reason: for the sake of freedom of conscience and of speech. See... CastleCops Link/t30558-patrick_henry.html

The words "under God" are not a cherished tradition, they have been included in the pledge only in the last 50 years.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:23 pm    Post subject:
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Why'd the atheist get into this thread? Rolling Eyes


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:57 pm    Post subject:
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Why not?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:34 pm    Post subject:
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As early as 1797, the American government specifically said that the United States is not a Christian Nation. The occasion was a peace and trade agreement between the United States and Muslim leaders in North Africa. The negotiations were conducted under the authority of George Washington, and the final document, known as the Treaty of Tripoli, was approved by the Senate under John Adams, the second president. This treaty states clearly that the "...Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...."

Contrary to the claims made by some from the Religious Right, America was not founded as a Christian Nation which was then later undermined by godless liberals and humanists. The opposite is the case, actually. The Constitution is a godless document and the government of the United States was set up as a formally secular institution in reaction to historical European religious strife. It has, however, been undermined by Christians seeking to subvert its secular principles and framework in the interest of promoting religious doctrine.

The Christian Ayatolas of the Religious Right desire their own Iran in the U.S. of A.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:22 am    Post subject:
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http://hometown.aol.com/endthewall/tripoli_barton.htm
Exclamation
The Founders did not intend to "found" a Christian nation. This is true.
America was already a Christian nation. If the Founders intended to found a secular nation, their constitution would have been utterly rejected.

The following historical facts have been taken from David Barton, Original Intent: The Courts, the Constitution, & Religion, 1996.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The words attributed to Washington are totally false ("The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion"). The 1797 Treaty of Tripoli is the source of Washington's supposed statement.

That treaty; one of several with Tripoli, was negotiated during the "Barbary Powers Conflict," which began shortly after the Revolutionary War and continued through the Presidencies of Washington, Adams, Jefferson, and Madison.[11] The Muslim Barbary Powers (Tunis, Morocco, Algiers, Tripoli, and Turkey) were warring against what they claimed to be the "Christian" nations (England, France, Spain, Denmark, and the United States). In 1801, Tripoli even declared war against the United States,[12] thus constituting America's first official war under the Constitution.

Throughout this long conflict, the five Barbary Powers regularly attacked undefended American merchant ships. Not only were their cargoes easy prey but the Barbary Powers were also capturing and enslaving "Christian" seamen[13] in retaliation for what had been done to them by the "Christians" of previous centuries (e.g., the Crusades and Ferdinand and Isabella's expulsion of Muslims from Granada[14]).

In an attempt to secure a release of captured seamen and a guarantee of unmolested shipping in the Mediterranean, President Washington dispatched envoys to negotiate treaties with the Barbary nations.[15] (Concurrently, he encouraged the construction of American naval warships[16] to defend the shipping and confront the Barbary pirates -- a plan not seriously pursued until President John Adams created a separate Department of the Navy in 1798.) The American envoys negotiated numerous treaties of "Peace and Amity"[17] with the Muslim Barbary nations to ensure "protection" of American commercial ships sailing in the Mediterranean.[18] However; the terms of the treaties frequently were unfavorable to America, either requiring her to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars of "tribute" (i.e., official extortion) to each country to receive a "guarantee" of safety or to offer other "considerations" (e.g., providing a warship as a "gift" to Tripoli,[19] a "gift" frigate to Algiers,[20] paying $525,000 to ransom captured American seamen from Algiers,[21] etc.).

The 1797 treaty with Tripoli was one of the many treaties in which each country officially recognized the religion of the other in an attempt to prevent further escalation of a "Holy War" between Christians and Muslims.[22] Consequently, Article XI of that treaty stated:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity [hatred] against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] and as the said States [America] have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.[23]

This article may be read in two manners. It may, as secularists do, be concluded after the clause "Christian religion"; or it may be read in its entirety and concluded when the punctuation so indicates.

But even if shortened and cut abruptly ("the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion"), this is not an untrue statement since it is referring to the federal government. Recall that while the Founders themselves openly described America as a Christian nation, they did include a constitutional prohibition against a federal "establishment of religion"; establishing a religion was a matter left solely to the individual States. Therefore, if the article is read as a declaration that the federal government of the United States was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion, such a statement is not a repudiation of the fact that America was considered a Christian nation.

The wording is admittedly ambiguous, especially for those of us in the 21st century. America was indisputably a Christian nation, "enlightened by a benign religion." [See Thomas Jefferson's First Inaugural Address.] But the clergy of America, in contrast to many European nations and their long history of conflict with the Muslims, did not have an official political establishment, and could not order the U.S. government to pursue a holy war against the Muslims. The Treaty was designed to convey an absense of religious or ecclesiastical hostility to the Muslims, and to use it as a statement of domestic church-state law is to abuse the purpose of the Treaty.

Reading the clause of the treaty in its entirety also fails to weaken this fact. Article XI simply distinguished America from those historical strains of European Christianity which held an inherent hatred of Muslims; it simply assured the Muslims that the United States was not a Christian nation like those of previous centuries (with whose practices the Muslims were very familiar) and thus would not undertake a religious holy war against them.

This latter reading is, in fact, supported by the attitude prevalent among numerous American leaders. The Christianity practiced in America was described by John Jay as "enlightened,"[24] by John Quincy Adams as civilized,"[25] and by John Adams as "rational."[26] A clear distinction was drawn between American Christianity and that of Europe in earlier centuries. As Noah Webster explained:

The ecclesiastical establishments of Europe which serve to support tyrannical governments are not the Christian religion but abuses and corruptions of it.[27]

Daniel Webster (1782-1852) was a prominent leader in the second generation of American statesmen. As a young boy, he grew up listening to and reading the speeches of prominent Founders like Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, et. al., and subsequently championed the Founders' ideas throughout the first half of the nineteenth century. He has been titled "The Defender of the Constitution" both for his understanding of that document and his efforts to maintain its principles.

Daniel Webster similarly explained that American Christianity was:

Christianity to which the sword and the fagot [burning stake or hot branding iron] are unknown-general tolerant Christianity is the law of the land![28]

(Those who attribute the Treaty of Tripoli quote to George Washington make two mistakes. The first is that no statement in it can be attributed to Washington (the treaty did not arrive in America until months after he left office); Washington never saw the treaty; it was not his work; no statement in it can be ascribed to him. The second mistake is to divorce a single clause of the treaty from the remainder which provides its context.)

It would also be absurd to suggest that President Adams (under whom the treaty was ratified in 1797) would have endorsed or assented to any provision which repudiated Christianity. In fact, while discussing the Barbary conflict with Jefferson, Adams declared:

The policy of Christendom has made cowards of all their sailors before the standard of Mahomet. It would be heroical and glorious in us to restore courage to ours.[29]

Furthermore, it was Adams who declared:

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature.[30]

Adams' own words confirm that he rejected any notion that America was less than a Christian nation.

Additionally, the writings of General William Eaton, a major figure in the Barbary Powers conflict, provide even more irrefutable testimony of how the conflict was viewed at that time. Eaton was first appointed by President John Adams as "Consul to Tunis," and President Thomas Jefferson later advanced him to the position of "U.S. Naval Agent to the Barbary States," authorizing him to lead a military expedition against Tripoli. Eaton's official correspondence during his service confirms that the conflict was a Muslim war against a Christian America.

For example, when writing to Secretary of State Timothy Pickering, Eaton apprised him of why the Muslims would be such dedicated foes:

Taught by revelation that war with the Christians will guarantee the salvation of their souls, and finding so great secular advantages in the observance of this religious duty [the secular advantage of keeping captured cargoes], their [the Muslims'] inducements to desperate fighting are very powerful.[31]

Eaton later complained that after Jefferson had approved his plan for military action, he sent him the obsolete warship "Hero." Eaton reported the impression of America made upon the Tunis Muslims when they saw the old warship and its few cannons:

[T]he weak, the crazy situation of the vessel and equipage [armaments] tended to confirm an opinion long since conceived and never fairly controverted among the Tunisians, that the Americans are a feeble sect of Christians.[32] (emphasis added)

In a later letter to Pickering, Eaton reported how pleased one Barbary ruler had been when he received the extortion compensations from America which had been promised him in one of the treaties:

He said, "To speak truly and candidly.... we must acknowledge to you that we have never received articles of the kind of so excellent a quality from any Christian nation. [33] (emphasis added)

When John Marshall became the new Secretary of State, Eaton informed him:

It is a maxim of the Barbary States, that "The Christians who would be on good terms with them must fight well or pay well."[34]

And when General Eaton finally commenced his military action against Tripoli, his personal journal noted:

April 8th. We find it almost impossible to inspire these wild bigots with confidence in us or to persuade them that, being Christians, we can be otherwise than enemies to Musselmen. We have a difficult undertaking![35]

May 23rd. Hassien Bey, the commander in chief of the enemy's forces, has offered by private insinuation for my head six thousand dollars and double the sum for me a prisoner; and $30 per head for Christians. Why don't he come and take it?[36]

Shortly after the military excursion against Tripoli was successfully terminated, its account was written and published. Even the title of the book bears witness to the nature of the conflict:

The Life of the Late Gen. William Eaton . . . commander of the Christian and Other Forces . . . which Led to the Treaty of Peace Between The United States and The Regency of Tripoli[37] (emphasis added)

The numerous documents surrounding the Barbary Powers Conflict confirm that historically it was always viewed as a conflict between Christian America and Muslim nations. Those documents completely disprove the notion that any founding President, especially Washington, ever declared that America was not a Christian nation or people.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It takes little effort to convince Americans who are ignorant of America's Christian history that America was intended to be an atheistic secular nation. But it takes more effort to explain away the words of the U.S. Supreme Court:

These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.

And all of the "organic utterances" cited by the Holy Trinity Court are real and their authenticity unquestioned, in sharp contrast to the elusive Article 11 of a long-ago superceded treaty.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTES
[11] Naval Documents Related to the United States Wars with the Barbary Powers, Claude A. Swanson, editor (Washington: Government Printing Office, 1939), Vol.1, p. v.

[12] Glen Tucker, Dawn Like Thunder: The Barbary Wars and the Birth of the U S. Navy (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill Company, 1963), p. 127.

[13] A General View of the Rise, Progress, and Brilliant Achievements of the American Navy, Down to the Present Time (Brooklyn, 1828), pp.70-71.

[14] Tucker, p. 50.

[15] President Washington selected Col. David Humphreys in 1793 as sole commissioner of Algerian affairs to negotiate treaties with Algeria, Tripoli and Tunis. He also appointed Joseph Donaldson, Jr., as Consul to Tunis and Tripoli. In February of 1796, Humphreys delegated power to Donaldson and/or Joel Barlow to form treaties. James Simpson, U.S. Consul to Gibraltar, was dispatched to renew the treaty with Morocco in 1795. On October 8,1796, Barlow commissioned Richard O'Brien to negotiate the treaty of peace with Tripoli. See, for example, Ray W. Irwin, The Diplomatic Relations of the United States with the Barbary Powers (Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 1931), p. 84.

[16] J. Fenimore Cooper, The History of the Navy of the United States of America (Philadelphia: Thomas, Cowperthwait & Co., 1847), pp. l23-l24. See also A Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents: 1789-1897, James D. Richardson, editor (Washington, D. C.: Published by Authority of Congress, 1899), Vol. I, pp. 201-202, from Washington's Eighth Annual Address of December 7, 1796.

[17] See, for example, the treaty with

Morocco: ratified by the United States on July 18, 1787. Treaties and Other International Agreements of the United States of America: 1776-1949, Charles I. Bevans, editor (Washington, D. C.: Department of State, 1968-1976), Vol. IX, pp. 1278-1285;
Algiers: concluded September 5,1795; ratified by the U.S. Senate March 2,1796. See also, "Treaty of Peace and Amity" concluded June 30 and July 6,1815; proclaimed December 26,1815, Treaties and Conventions Concluded Between the United States of America and Other Powers Since July 4, 1776 (Washington, D. C.: Government Printing Office, 1889), pp. 1-15;
Tripoli: concluded November 4, 1796; ratified June 10, 1797. See also, "Treaty of Peace and Amity" concluded June 4, 1805; ratification advised by the U.S. Senate April 12, 1806. Treaties, Conventions, International Acts, Protocols and Agreements between the United States of America and Other Powers: 1776-1909, William M. Malloy, editor (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1910), Vol. II, pp. 1785-1793;
Tunis: concluded August 1797; ratification advised by the Senate, with amendments, March 6, 1798; alterations concluded March 26, 1799; ratification again advised by the Senate December 24, 1799. Treaties, Conventions, International Acts, Protocols and Agreements between the United States of America and Other Powers: 1776-1909, William M. Malloy, editor (Washington, D. C.: Government Printing Office, 1910), Vol.11, pp. 1794-1799.
[18] Gardner W. Allen, Our Navy and the Barbary Corsairs (Boston: Houghton, Mifflin and Company, 1905), pp. 33, 45, 56, 60.

[19] Allen, p. 66.

[20] Allen,p.57.

[21] Allen, p. 56.

[22] (See general bibliographic information from footnote 17 for each of these references)

Morocco: see Articles 10, 11, 17, and 24;
Algiers: See Treaty of 1795, Article 17, and Treaty of1815, Article 17;
Tripoli: See Treaty of 1796, Article 11, and Treaty of1805, Article 14;
Tunis: See forward to Treaty.
[23] Acts Passed at the First Session of the Fifth Congress of the United States of America (Philadelphia: William Ross, 1797), pp. 43-44.

[24] William Jay, The Life of John Jay (New York:J. &J. Harper, 1833), p. 80, from his "Charge to the Grand Jury of Ulster County" on September 9,1777.

[25] John Quincy Adams, An Oration Delivered Before the Inhabitants of the Town of Newburyport at Their Request on the Sixty-First Anniversary of the Declaration of lndependence (Newburyport: Charles Whipple, 1837), p. 17.

[26] John Adams, Works, Vol. IX, p. 121, in a speech to both houses of Congress, November 23,1797.

[27] Noah Webster, History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), p. 339.

[28] Daniel Webster, Mr. Webster's Speech in Defense of the Christian Ministry and In Favor of the Religious Instruction of the Young. Delivered in the Supreme Court of the United States, February 10, 1844, in the Case of Stephen Girard's Will (Washington: Gales and Seaton, 1844), p. 52.

[29] John Adams, Works, Vol. VIII, p. 407, to Thomas Jefferson on July 3, 1786.

[30] John Adams, Works, Vol. X, pp. 45-46, to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813.

[31] Charles Prentiss, The Life of the Late Gen. William Eaton: Several Years an Officer in the United States Army Consul at the Regency of Tunis on the Coast of Barbary, and Commander of the Christian and Other Forces that Marched from Egypt Through the Desert of Barca, in 1805, and Conquered the City of Derne, which Led to the Treaty of Peace Between The United States and The Regency of Tripoli (Brookfield: Merriam & Company, 1813), pp. 92-93, from General Eaton to Timothy Pickering, June 15, 1799.

[32] Prentiss, p. 146, from General Eaton to Mr. Smith, June 27, 1800.

[33] Prentiss, p. 150, from General Eaton to Timothy Pickering on July 4, 1800.

[34] Prentiss, p. 185, from General Eaton to General John Marshall, September 2,1800.

[35] Prentiss, p. 325, from Eaton's journal, April 8, 1805.

[36] Prentiss, p. 334, from Eaton's journal, May 23, 1805.

[37] Prentiss.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 8:58 pm    Post subject:
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Hey chickengirl

Quote:
The Founders did not intend to "found" a Christian nation. This is true. America was already a Christian nation


Before the Founders did the actual "founding", America was definitely not a Christian nation. It was a nation of Asgaya Gigagei (Cherokee), Atira (Pawnee), Awonawilona (Pueblo Indians), Big Heads (Iroquois), Coyote (Southwestern Indians, but known in other areas as well), Evening Star (Pawnee), First Man And First Woman (Navajo), Kachinas (Hopi), Raven (Northwestern tribes), and a host of others. I suppose at the time there was a minority Christian presence on the east coast. And if America was not yet a nation (prior to the founders "founding") how could it already be a nation, Christian or otherwise.

Quote:
If the Founders intended to found a secular nation, their constitution would have been utterly rejected


I'm not entirely sure the founders were too concerned with whatever religious identity might or might not ensue. I don't think they intended to found a secular nation, otherwise the rare mention of God would have been in a negative sense. I would suggest, though, that whatever the intent of the founders, it should have no reference to America today. Whatever their intent, it was formed what 230? years ago. Times change. Religion doesn't (at least not beyond a snail's pace, and kicking and screaming all the way.)

Would you like to live in an extreme Islamic state? Iran? Saudi Arabia? ( Saudi "Wahhabism"..there's a subject that bears looking into. The power behind al-Qaeda and Hamas among others.) Anyway, the reason I ask is because the extreme Islamic states have arrived at where they are through a process of regression, an attempt to embrace the roots of Islam. The exact same thing the religious right is attempting in America right now. It will not be pretty if they achieve their diabolical aim.

Quote:
The following historical facts have been taken from David Barton, Original Intent: The Courts, the Constitution, & Religion, 1996


David Barton is um... questionable...... http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston1.htm http://www.buildingequality.us/ifas/fw/9606/barton.html

Quote:
Barton..."The words attributed to Washington are totally false ("The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion"). The 1797 Treaty of Tripoli is the source of Washington's supposed statement"


The words are not false, they are true. They are there. They are unequivical. "in no sense". While Washington may not have actually uttered the words is beside the point (though I and no other source I've seen has made the claim that "Washington said"). The point being that this treaty was innaugerated during Washington's watch. And government not being the behemoth it is today, I can't help but think George W. would be sending a poet off to conclude a treaty with a nation that was in conflict with America without knowing what was to be in the treaty. Add to that the fact (as reported) that the treaty passed through both houses and was ratified, unchanged, with little debate. These are not the acts of a "Christian nation".

Ok,...the bible is the revealed word of God, right? To a Christian the bible is the epitome of all writing, right? That being the case, it is impossible that the Founders were bible believing Christians. The bible informs us that it's a sin to rebel against government. Romans 13:1-2, "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment." So if we are to believe the religious right, America was founded on disobedience to God through rebellion to the British Crown.

So perhaps Aids, taxes, low sat scores, promiscuity, and rock and roll are the incurred judgement. Oh wait, I'm wrong, they are the result of removing prayer from public schools. Right.


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